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Author Topic: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"  (Read 3829 times)

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doug

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"To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« on: April 14, 2012, 08:07:45 PM »

I was reminded of that verse in Titus recently and personally hadn't thought about what it meant for a long while.  I figured this was a good time for me to review that verse and ask myself what it means.

The above words are scripture, written by the apostle Paul.  He said, "To the pure, all things are pure.  But to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.  They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient, and worthless for any good deed." Titus 1:15,16.

So what does this verse mean?  Some people would like it to mean that one can engage in some sort of less than pure entertainment and not be adversely effected by it.  For example, this statement has been used by some to say that they could use pornography and their own "purity" would make their pastime pure.  They suggest that the only way one could be adversely effected by such is to have a filthy heart to begin with.

Does it mean that if I am pure in heart, that everything I do will be rendered automatically pure?  Does it mean that a person's lust, greed, immorality, cursing, cheating and lying are all "pure" if the person committing them is pure within?  I think any rational thinking person dedicated to pleasing the Lord knows better than that; so then, what does the statement mean?  It is scripture, and therefore it is true!

The way I understand Paul's statement "To the pure all things are pure" must be taken in the context of the problem at hand.  There were false teachers "teaching things they should not teach."  Titus 1:10,11.  From this epistle, and others, we know exactly what they were teaching. But please correct me if I am wrong, I also believe that all scripture is for all people in all places and for all time.  Even though it is historically true as to what was happening in Paul's day, his example is for us also.

Paul was dealing with rebellious men of Jewish backgrounds who were trying to bind portions of the Old Law on the Gentile converts.  Among those laws were the dietary restrictions that divided meat into two groups, "clean" and "unclean".  Under the Old Law, this was pictured for God's chosen people, the Jews, the concept of how they must maintain a separateness from the world and its sin.  Today, while we are no longer required by the New Covenant of Christ to keep these Old Covenant dietary regulations, we are still commanded to keep ourselves separate from the sins of the world.  II Cor 6:14-18, I John 3:3-5.

The false teachers were saying that some meat continued to be impure.  Paul says, in this context, that "To the pure all things are pure."  He was talking about food, not that we could mix with sin and still maintain our purity.  I believe that to even attempt to apply this statement to impure or immoral behavior is a gross misapplication of the scripture.  According to the context, by the grace of God, we are to leave behind those things which are not in harmony with His will.

I'm just thinking.... I don't know.... what do any of you think?

 
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2012, 06:32:48 AM »


Hi Doug

For me, the statement "To the pure, all things are pure" ....is like saying how God see's things. He makes all things for His pure purpose and intention. 1Ti 6:16  who alone possesses immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light,.....

Why would God be "unapproachable".....if not only to show that there is nothing outside of God that can approach Him, who is the fabric of all that is. Nothing is made that is not made of God.

Arc
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Memme

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2012, 09:19:06 AM »

Hi Doug 

I believe there is a deeper meaning in Paul’s words than dietary restrictions.  He begins the letter saying:  …”according to the faith of the chosen ones of God, and the personal knowledge of the truth that is according to godliness…” (Rotherham).  Then, he charges Titus with ensuring the moral character of the elders  (vs 6-9):  “If anyone is unaccusable, a husband of, one wife, having children that believe, who are not charged with riotous excess, nor insubordinate; For it is needful that the overseer be—unaccusable, as God’s steward, not self-willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, not ready to wound, not seeking gain by base means, But hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, kind, possessing self-control, Holding fast, in the matter of his teaching, the faithful word, that he may be able both to encourage with his healthful instruction, and, the gainsayers, to refute.” 

“All things, are pure, unto the pure, but, unto the polluted and faithless, nothing is pure, but polluted are both their mind and conscience”  Those who have been given the personal knowledge of truth according to godliness and hold fast in the Word (Christ) are being made spiritually pure by HIS righteousness and mind.   Their mind and conscience is being cleansed of greed, hate, and immorality by their personal knowledge of truth only by the Spirit of Truth. 

OTOH, those who ‘hold’ to tradition and man’s commandments “are turning from the truth for their own gain”; therefore, nothing is pure for they are, by that very definition, ‘polluting their own mind and conscience’.  (vs 11)….they are ‘accusable’ by the Truth and even what ‘good works’ they do are worthless for they are not works of righteousness and they are 'accusable' by the Truth.

Barbara
 


« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 09:21:23 AM by Memme »
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indianabob

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2012, 11:02:02 AM »

New friend Barbara,

thanks for the comments, well said and helpful.
Keep up the fine work.
Indiana bob
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doug

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2012, 01:02:45 PM »

Hi Barbara,

I believe you have it correct.  I believe you are right in that this passage does not put forth a teaching on what is or is not "pure" such as the meat issue I described.

The pure are those who have been cleansed from sin by the blood of Jesus Christ, and who pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace:  "Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith , love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart." II Tim 2:22.  The pure have been washed clean and strive to remain clean: "Let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."  Heb 10:22.

The "pure", therefore, does not refer to people who have good motives or who have "the faith" for their actions or to people who sincerely obey their superiors, elders etc.  The pure are those people who have had their sins taken away.  They are eager to do good so practically everything that they do is good.  Good works naturally proceed from them at all times.  However, when sinners are unregenerate, spiritually unwashed, then nothing they do can be good; they are "worthless for any good deed" Titus 1:16.  Those that are pure think pure thoughts and do pure things because they have been washed clean.  They see God's purity in everything and act accordingly.  By contrast, it is easy to tell those who are impure because they are disobedient to God and His moral laws and consequently they defile all that they touch.

Thanks for sharing, Dave from Tenn. , Arc, Indiana Bob and Barbara
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santikos

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2012, 06:29:53 PM »

i remember listen to ray and he said " do the right thing all the time". my motives are pure so the things i do are pure. i dont worry if i did something wrong to get me in trouble. If a cop is knocking on my door i dont worry because i did nothing. If someone approaches me in a serious tone and says " we gotta talk" i am not worried becasue i did nothing wrong in my heart.  i might have offended someway but not according to my heart.
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Memme

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2012, 07:36:00 PM »

Hi all again

santikos said quoting Ray:  "do the right thing all the time".  By constantly praying 'deliver me from evil', I truly believe that's exactly what happens in the process of being made 'pure' & being given a 'clean' conscious.   Whenever our conscious pricks us (which, of course, IS the Spirit of Truth) and we judge ourselves to have lust in our hearts or temptation to 'turn from the truth', anger, greed, etc. we need to remember that Jesus said 'get thee behind me, Satan'!  Sin comes from the heart and if that heart 'holds fast' to that lust/temptation, evil works will always be manifested. As Paul tells us, we are waging a SPIRITUAL battle and that battle is within our own carnal weak flesh. Is it not the most wonderful thing to have our Jesus Christ as our advocate and our strength for we can do nothing without Him?   ;D

Lord, deliver us from evil.
Barbara   
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Kat

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2012, 08:47:46 PM »


This is a good discussion. Barbara, your comments are very well put  :)

Quote
The pure have been washed clean and strive to remain clean: "Let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."  Heb 10:22.


Doug what you were saying is right in line with the article 'Gehenna Fire Judgment' where Ray spoke about sanctifiction.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm ----------

SANCTIFICATION: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth... That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish" (John 17:17 & Eph. 5:26-27). Strong's #37, hagiazo, "to make holy, purify, consecrate, venerate, hallow, be holy, sanctify." Need I point out once more the enormous change that must be made in us. We are spiritually dirty and we need to be changed to something that is pure and holy. This we are told is accomplished by the Christ "washing us from our sins in His own blood" (Rev. 1:5), and "with the washing of water by the word." We are sanctified (set apart as something pure and holy) through the Truth, which is the Word of God, which Word is Jesus Christ and His blood.
-------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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santgem

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 03:55:49 AM »

To the pure all things are Pure.

This pure lives in righteousness.  It is this  pure emulating the life of the Lord and enduring the trials and tribulations of this world. All things for the pure leads to righteousness.

Like wise for;

But to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.  They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient, and worthless for any good deed."

"Watch out!" Jesus warned them. "Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Mat 16:6

Then at last they understood that he wasn't speaking about the yeast in bread, but about the deceptive teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Mat 16:12

As they claim that they know God, but their acts denying it. Those hypocrites outwardly is pure but inwardly are full of evil things and deceit. Undefiled and unbelieving  same as Pharisees and Sadducees loves all  things in this world because they follow the lust of their father, the devil.

That is my understanding, I hope this may help a little.
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doug

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2012, 12:38:44 AM »


This is a good discussion. Barbara, your comments are very well put  :)

Quote
The pure have been washed clean and strive to remain clean: "Let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."  Heb 10:22.


Doug what you were saying is right in line with the article 'Gehenna Fire Judgment' where Ray spoke about sanctifiction.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm ----------

SANCTIFICATION: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth... That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish" (John 17:17 & Eph. 5:26-27). Strong's #37, hagiazo, "to make holy, purify, consecrate, venerate, hallow, be holy, sanctify." Need I point out once more the enormous change that must be made in us. We are spiritually dirty and we need to be changed to something that is pure and holy. This we are told is accomplished by the Christ "washing us from our sins in His own blood" (Rev. 1:5), and "with the washing of water by the word." We are sanctified (set apart as something pure and holy) through the Truth, which is the Word of God, which Word is Jesus Christ and His blood.
-------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Judgment also involves trials, tests, persecution, tribulation, and many such things that sometimes makes life very difficult and uncomfortable, but also qualifies us to "...be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God."

Kat  ~  This is a quote from Ray in 'Gehenna Fire Judgment'  that you referred to.  All I can say is that with my spiritual walk with God.... I can vouch for that!  It hasn't been pleasant to say the least.
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DougE6

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2012, 11:39:59 PM »


the Pure have pure motives. Their motives for their actions are not for selfish gain, for fleshly gratification, for wordly power, for acclaim, or for secret lusts; IN FACT they are so far removed from these things that they cannot see the utility in any carnal things that are used for the above!  They simply do not want to have anything to do with them, and will focus, dwell on, rejoice in, embrace, and practice things that are are not tainted with impure motives, dirty or sinful blemish. In fact, the really pure, their minds will not race to find the angle or the advantage, or how to get over or use another, when faced with situations where such might possibly be available.  In contrast to the pure the impure will devise, think of, be attracted to schemes and angles to gain advantage and gratifications over others, or find ways to gratify their own sinful flesh; even when faced with the same situations that caused NO such response in the pure.

How your carnal mind responds to situations tells whether you are pure or not. If your carnal mind rules you, and you find and are attracted to ways and schemes to gratify yourself when faced with situations then you ARE IMPURE.  If your carnal mind is dead, and you are not prone or tempted in various ways when faced with the same situations that cause failure in others, then you ARE PURE.

If you see a beautiful wife of another man and are constantly considering how nice it would be to experience her in bed you are impure. IF your see the same woman and rejoice in the gift her husband has in her and can only think of ways to help their relationship or help her spiritual growth, THEN YOU ARE PURE.
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moshe

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2012, 01:03:21 AM »


These seems like a very interesting topic to me. Also I believe it's not as simple as other subjects that we have learn around here, there are topics that take a lot more than just a few moments of contemplation and meditation.

Of course to the pure all things are pure, because he is pure. But whom do you know here on earth that is PURE, ALL CLEAN, NO mistakes never...?                     We only know about Jesus.

Now, Since our minds tent to make shortcuts to bring faster answers to our daily challenges, it's usual that we don't give a deeper thought to the fact that all people have many different and specific degrees of wrongness, compassion, evil and ignorance. There are people who are a little greedy, greedier, very greedy, and EXTREMELY GREEDY and the same goes with vanity, envy and selfishness.

On the same way there are people with different degrees of purity. I once hear that Ray said that there is a point we can reach when sin doesn't control us anymore, a place where we are no longer slaves of sin. Of course that even the most pure of all humans still make mistakes (in comparison to God, the light of the purest human is darkness), but the mistakes of someone like Paul are little in comparison with everything that he was able to accomplished (it's like when writing a masterpiece, a few grammar mistakes doesn't take the magnificence of the work at hand or the truthfulness of the statements on it), generally saying we could pretty much tell that Paul was pure, even so he wasn't 100% pure here in the flesh while he was still alive, since no none is good.

As Dennis well said on another tread a little while ago:''Our judging is going to be individualized by God'' and it's going to be in according with OUR OWN acts. Not in according to the acts of your country, your family or friends, we are not going to be judged in groups, if you live around people whom are pure that doesn't make you automatically pure (neither the other way around.)

At the end of the day, what God takes in account the most is our main intentions and motivations that come out from our heart, this is why we must worry not so much about the physical but about the spirit in which we do everything we do.

Once we start to watch and realize (very consciously) that there are so many different levels and degrees of evil and purity, a whole new panorama will open to us.
I know what I am saying is so obvious and logical, but since we have been brain washed by the church so badly, we need to give these a deeper thought. The protestand church used to say that when deciding you eternal destiny, the levels of evil doesn't matter, that if you just didn't accept Jesus as your personal saviour with a magical prayer, then that is a reason enough to get toasted for a little bit more than just a few hours in a place in spanish called ''Infierno'' (when you pronounce it sound even more creepy).

 Think about it, not all Christians or pastors have the same level of wrongness and ignorance. There will be more judgement to the ones that knowing that something is wrong, they still do it. However, we don't always have it all right at the first intent. I have felt the judgement, I am guilty of doing things even when I know that these are of no convenience for me, but I ask forgiveness, and I keep trying, and get up again and again, until God, using time and hard experiences finally makes me overcome my past mistakes. I don't have it all figure it out yet, but I keep running forward, just running forward...

But to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.  They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient, and worthless for any good deed."   

And whom are the ones that profess to know God? I remember when I was detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed on a great degree...

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John from Kentucky

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2012, 01:20:52 AM »

The Apostle Paul was just a man.  Everything he did came from God.

Judas was just a man.  Everything he did came from God.

One vessel for honor.  One vessel for dishonor.

All as decided by the Potter.

Both men will be saved and healed by God, will be given everlasting life by God, and will live in happiness with God.
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DougE6

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2012, 12:23:49 PM »

The Apostle Paul was just a man.  Everything he did came from God.

Judas was just a man.  Everything he did came from God.

One vessel for honor.  One vessel for dishonor.

All as decided by the Potter.

Both men will be saved and healed by God, will be given everlasting life by God, and will live in happiness with God.

As true as this is, what about the present question, Do we or do we not strive to be righteous and holy and to please God? Speaking for myself, I long sought for purity, knowing full well I was so far from it; and I am thrilled after much wrestling and prayer and seeking God to find my mind is no longer tempted to do what I used to do, most days or even weeks go by and I think back and say WOW really?! Cool. Thank you Lord I really believe I see a tangible difference in me. BUT THIS DID NOT COME WITHOUT ME DESIRING AND SEEKING WITH ALL MY HEART.  And it is not wrong for me to say it that way, even if it is true God put the desire in me, because I refuse to think in any way that will excuse my actions or excuse my carnality. How can one gain victory while being doubleminded? And the victory was far from immediate. Powder, sometimes we are broken to powder. But when we are weak, and we know it, and we thirst for righteousness, He grants us His mind and not ours, His heart and not ours. I fail to see why we should not be encouraging one another to seek His righteousenss and Kingdom not just in knowledge but in purity, in actions, in thoughts.
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Rene

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2012, 02:14:16 PM »


I fail to see why we should not be encouraging one another to seek His righteousenss and Kingdom not just in knowledge but in purity, in actions, in thoughts.


Absolutely we should be doing this, and it is scripturally sound to do so. :)

Philippians 4:8 - "Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things."

René
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2012, 02:57:07 PM »

I think the rest of the letter helps sort out the "Pure (to whom all things are pure)" from the "defiled and unbelieving who profess to to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed" (to whom nothing is pure--not even their good deeds).

We're called out of both the world AND the church/babylon.  How I relate to the rest of the letter marks my passage out of both.

That's just the way I see it.

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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

doug

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2012, 03:16:52 PM »

The Apostle Paul was just a man.  Everything he did came from God.

Judas was just a man.  Everything he did came from God.

One vessel for honor.  One vessel for dishonor.

All as decided by the Potter.

Both men will be saved and healed by God, will be given everlasting life by God, and will live in happiness with God.

As true as this is, what about the present question, Do we or do we not strive to be righteous and holy and to please God? Speaking for myself, I long sought for purity, knowing full well I was so far from it; and I am thrilled after much wrestling and prayer and seeking God to find my mind is no longer tempted to do what I used to do, most days or even weeks go by and I think back and say WOW really?! Cool. Thank you Lord I really believe I see a tangible difference in me. BUT THIS DID NOT COME WITHOUT ME DESIRING AND SEEKING WITH ALL MY HEART.  And it is not wrong for me to say it that way, even if it is true God put the desire in me, because I refuse to think in any way that will excuse my actions or excuse my carnality. How can one gain victory while being doubleminded? And the victory was far from immediate. Powder, sometimes we are broken to powder. But when we are weak, and we know it, and we thirst for righteousness, He grants us His mind and not ours, His heart and not ours. I fail to see why we should not be encouraging one another to seek His righteousenss and Kingdom not just in knowledge but in purity, in actions, in thoughts.

Hey Doug E6! (I hope your initials aren't DLC), how are you.  Hi John!

Doug, You succinctly put into words what I was thinking but could not express with thoughts or words what you had commented to John.
John - what did your comment have to do with the original question proposed?  Am I missing something?  After consideration, I thought maybe there was some kind of deeper spiritual lesson I wasn't perceiving, so I let it be.  Is there more hidden in your comment to the virtue of purity that I do not understand? Like Doug E6 said, what you stated is absolutely true!

Yes, Moises, the only 'Pure One' is Jesus Christ and we who are called are striving to acquire that perfect purity... through not by works of the law, but buy the good works we perform that flows from our hearts as we obey His commandments (the whole bible).  It's for sure everyone has their own degree of purity according to how God is dealing with that individual in the carnality within him in this present life.

By the way Moises - You don't know how tempting it is for me (with your invitation to Cancun) to launch my kayak in the Gulf at Padre Island and paddle the coastline to visit your beautiful turquoise waters! What an adventure that would be!

I've learned much from your comments Santikos, Barbara, Kat (love your southern belle voice from the archives!), Santgem,  Rene' and Dave.  Thank you all for your good biblical examples of Titus 1:10,11.
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Shawn Fainn

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2012, 04:10:30 PM »

"To The Pure All Things Are Pure"

Seems to mean that one can SEE things as God does.. or at least have a greater view/understanding of how all things are leading to a greater purpose. IE.. 'Pure of sight'

That's what I get out of it, at least.
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cjwood

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Re: "To The Pure All Things Are Pure"
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2012, 01:29:32 AM »


By the way Moises - You don't know how tempting it is for me (with your invitation to Cancun) to launch my kayak in the Gulf at Padre Island and paddle the coastline to visit your beautiful turquoise waters! What an adventure that would be!




say what??!!  doug, which part of padre island?  around corpus christi or brownsville?  you in texas?  your remark to moises caught my attention.

claudia


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