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Author Topic: Holy Spirit--"himself" or "itself"?  (Read 2701 times)

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Duane

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Holy Spirit--"himself" or "itself"?
« on: April 16, 2012, 01:28:10 AM »

In reading Ray's article on the "trinity", I wanted to ee how the NIV, KJV, NKJV and CLV treated the holy spirit in the translations of Romans 8:  It was as follows:

Did you know that there was a big difference between "itself" and "himself"?
To the best of my knowledge, "itself" would refer to an object and "himself" would refer to a "person or being".
Having just done a little study in Romans 8, I discovered that the interpreters of the King James Version and the New King james Version don't know the difference!

We know, or most B-Ter's" know, that the spirit is what gives life to the bobyand is what is returned to God at death--where the soul and body are returned to the earth (sheol/hell/grave until the resurrection. Without the SPIRIT there is NO life!
...
All through Romans 8 the spirit is mentioned several times in different capacities. The "spirit" of course in the "holy spirit" within Jesus and God which give THEM life.
It is also the "spirit" of them within US that gives US "spiritual life" which is salvation.
There are verse references below describing some of the names and jobs of the spirit in just this ONE chapter: vs:
2. the "spirit of life" in Christ that frees us from the spirit of the law.
6. the "spirit of life and peace" ...
9. God's spirit that is "home in you"...
11. the spirit "rouses jesus from the dead"
14. "we are led by God's spirit..."
15. "the spirit of sonship which cries: "ABBA, Father!"
16. "the spirit ITSELF testifies that we are children of God.."
23. "the first-fruit of the spirit"
26. "the spirit ITSELFis pleading for us with inaudible groanings"
27. "the dispensation of the spirit pleads for the saints"

It is commonly taught that the trinity is comprised of "three persons"! God the Father, Jesus "the first -fruit of His creation" -His son, and the Holy Spirit.

The original Greek language consistently speaks of the holy spirit as "it"--meaning the spirits of God the father and Jesus that indwell the believer.

Romans 8: 16 and 26 are as follows:
King James Version and Concordant Literal Version = "itself" both verses
New King James Version and New International Version = "himself" both verses
Then the Old King James version SPLITS the holy spirit to "it" vs. 26 and "he" v. 27!
That is all I'll comment here. {links not working and not allowed}

 
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 01:45:13 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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eggi

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Re: Holy Spirit--"himself" or "itself"?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2012, 06:47:04 PM »

Hi Duane,

Thank you for sharing this. Yes, even though the Holy Spirit is mentioned at times with "character traits", such as "do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption" and "It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ", which makes it sound as this is an active being, it is really just a way of speech.

From Isaiah 63:10 for example:

Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he (who, the Holy Spirit? No their "Redeemer from of old - The LORD") turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.

Barnes' commentary on the Bible:

His Holy Spirit - The Chaldee renders this, 'But they were unwilling to obey, and they irritated (provoked, blasphemed רגז râgaz) against the words of the prophets.' But the reference seems rather to be to the Spirit of God that renewed, comforted, enlightened, and sanctified them. Grotius, Rosenmuller, and Gesenius, suppose that this means God himself - a Spirit of holiness. But, with the revelation of the New Testament before us, we cannot well doubt that the real reference here is to the third person of the Trinity - the renewer and sanctifier of the people of God. It may be admitted, perhaps, that the ancient Hebrews would refer this to God himself, and that their views of the offices of the different persons in the divine nature were not very clearly marked, or very distinct. But this does not prove that the real reference may not have been to 'the Holy Spirit.' The renewer and sanctifier of the human heart at all times has been the same.

In other words, even though it actually, according to Barnes, says something which does not point to a third person in the Trinity, this 'doesn't prove that the real reference may not have been to 'the Holy Spirit''. Well, the real reference actually IS to the Holy Spirit, but it's HIS Holy Spirit, not THE Holy Spirit.

Just a question to think about: How many are actually praying to the Holy Spirit which should be possible if the Holy Spirit is God? I've never heard anyone doing that.

God bless you,
Eirik
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 06:49:59 PM by eggi »
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Here’s how to tell if you have faith; how do you live… what do you do… what do you accomplish in life… what are your goals… What is there about you that proves that you have this faith and belief inside of you? What?

ez2u

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Re: Holy Spirit--"himself" or "itself"?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2012, 10:50:17 PM »

Thanks for sharing this  very interesting
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Duane

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Re: Holy Spirit--"himself" or "itself"?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2012, 10:01:41 PM »

Eggi--thank you for the work and research that went into your post.  The "B-T" gang is THE GREATEST when it comes to really wanting to know the truth of the Bible!!
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