bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email bibletruths.forum@gmail.com   

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Lazarus Parable  (Read 2817 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Craig

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4283
  • There are two kinds of cops.The quick and the dead
Lazarus Parable
« on: May 05, 2012, 02:50:10 PM »

Dear Levy: I will make some COMMENTS in your email:

Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 11:58:11 PM
Subject: Parable of Lazarus and the Rich

Hello Ray,

I have been very blessed by God through you, it's all making more and more sense (Bible) and I'm glad God chose to reveal the Truth to me too. I'm humbled for that, and also expecting what new things I'm going to learn, because everyday I'm learning something new from God through you. Like someone said once in one of your emails (or on a BT forum post), I'm always smiling of joy by learning new things when I read your papers :)

The reason I decided to write this email to you is that although having read your paper on Lazarus and the Rich 3 times now, sometimes I wonder why would Jesus use several pagan concepts / teachings and create a parable with things that are lies if taken literally...
 
COMMENT:  Notice first, that this parable is not given to His apostles, but rather to--"...the PUBLICANS and SINNERS for to  hear Him. And the PHARISEES and SCRIBES m-u-r-u-r-e-d...."  And so Jesus teaches them using things that they believed in.  Jesus didn't take a few hours to explain to them that man does not have an immortal soul, and that when he dies, he does not go to heaven or hell, and that a person's judgment does not take place at the time of death, or that poor people are no guarantee of righteousness, or that wealth is not necessarily a sign of pride and evil.  And many other such things.  Jesus took them from where they were and what they believed to show them the truth about Judgment.  Now to suggest that if taken literally, Jesus would have been lying, is not accurate.  There really could have been a rich man who fed the poor at his gate with the left-overs from their meals. There really were poor people who were sick and diseased who sought help from those more fortunate.  And it is only natural for dogs to lick the sores of people. And so Jesus said that this particular beggar, Lazarus, died and was carried by angels to a close relationship with Abraham.  Does this not bear out the truth of  Jesus stating that the angels will gather God's elect?  Is it unreasonable to believe that Abraham will have a high office in God's Kingdom on this earth.  Surely Abraham was as righteous as any of the 12 apostles, and they are to rule over whole nations of Israelites.
 
Likewise the rich man died and was resurrected from hades (the realm of the dead) and saw Abraham and Lazarus "afar off."   Surely there is a "far" division between those raised to reign with Christ and those raised to be JUDGED by Christ.  And so the rich man cries for mercy from Abraham, but Abraham informs him that this is not enough to be accepted in a close relationship with those resurrected to the Kingdom of God.  And neither will the rich man's brothers be saved from Judgment just because they wish it.  Abraham tells the rich man how he and his brothers can receive mercy.  They all have access to "Moses and the Prophets."  They must first "HEAR them."  But no, the rich man wanted a short-cut for himself and his brothers.  The rich man thought surely his brothers would repent if someone was resurrected from the dead and witnessed to them.  But the rich and the poor did have someone return from the dead, and that was Jesus Christ, and yet they did not believe.  Even His own apostles said, "I go fishing," and the rest said also and they all went fishing.  Two of His disciples on the road to Emmaus thought it had all failed.  They killed their Saviour, and so now they were going home.  Even Jesus' own apostles had to be persuaded by more than just returned from the dead.  Thomas had to put his hand into the hole in Jesus' side before being convinced.  And that is where the parable ends.  So how is a bunch of lies?  It is absolutely truthful.  And clearly such things as the fire and water and symbols.  This rich man
was not being burned in 12,000 degree fire as many Christian teacher suggest.


It seems to me that all other parables were created in a way they don't contradict the Scriptures if taken literally, take the Sower for example. But Lazarus and the Rich man as you confirm in your paper, contradicts dozens and dozens of verses from the Bible. Why's that so? Why would the Lord we know - which will save the whole world - use wrong teachings to teach something correct? There is, mix lies with truth?
 
COMMENT:  Excuse me, Levy, but just where do I "confirm in my paper" that this parable contradicts dozens and dozens of verses from the Bible?  I show that the SYMBOLS cannot be taken "literally," but that does not "contradict" dozens of Scriptures in the Bible.  You are missing a lot here.  Jesus said that the wine He presented at the last supper was His BLOOD!  Was it really blood, or did it just represent His blood?  He said the bread was His BODY, but was it really?  Or did it not just represent His body?  You suggest that Christ's other parables can be taken literally.  Oh really? Jesus told His disciples that "Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they wished" (Mark 9:12).  Oh really? Did the literal Elias, literally come at that time?  Or was it not that someone came "in the SPIRIT of Elias?" Jesus called the Gentiles "dogs."  Where they really? Literally? Or was He not just using terms that were used and understood by all?  Are we to believe that it is "literally" possible for someone to have a large beam or timber in his eye (Matt. 7:5)?


I understand that Jesus sometimes didn't correct people when they had heresies in their minds, so Ok, He conceals and chooses who will receive eyes to see. Jesus doesn't reveal the Truth to everyone, but to think He would also openly confuse people by bringing up these several heresies contained in the "literal" Lazarus and the Rich man, it's very disturbing...
 
COMMENT:  I don't doubt that to you this is confusing, but it is not as you state, and therefore should NOT be confusing.  Jesus assuredly did not "bring up several heresies contained in the "literal" Lazarus and the Rich man."  Just because something is not "literally" true, does not make it a lie or an heresy.  When people say that "you look white as a ghost."  Are they LYING?  No.  Are the exaggerating?  Yes.  But that's okay, it is often helpful in making a point stronger.  Does anyone really know of a man who is "stronger than an ox?"  I think not.  And have you ever "literally" "cried over spilled milk?"
 
I understand God sends confusion (2 The 2:11) whenever He chooses and God created evil and uses evil to His perfect plans and purposes (Amos 3:6), but doesn't this parable look like a clear contradiction?
 
COMMENT:  No, Levy, it does not look like a clear contradiction.

Maybe we do we have similar "confusions" or "mixtures" (of lies and truth) in the Bible, and I just don't know of... If that's so, please tell me...
 
COMMENT:  Levy, I know of NO lies mixed with truths in the Bible.

I read an article in a website where the writer advocates that this parable was added to the Scriptures (thus not inspired). The same way Satan was allowed to use Jude, corrupting something of God (the 12), Satan was also allowed to add/remove things from/to the Bible...
 
COMMENT:  Well, Levy, we just need to be more careful about who we listen to.


This idea was very new to me, you know, a whole section of Luke added by who knows who... I know of some added passages such as 1 John 5:7 (learned from your paper on the Trinity), but it never did occured to me that a whole passage could have been added by man.
 
COMMENT:  True, I John 5:7 most definitely has been added to the King James and other English Bible, but it is NOT FOUND IN GOD'S BIBLES--it is not found the the six or seven thousand Greek manuscripts of the New Testament.  And this verse only appeared within a few years of the invention of the printing press.  When Jerome translated the Greek Scriptures into the Latin Vulgate, he knew nothing of a verse like * John 5:7."

The problem being not so much whatever is the True meaning of the parable, which if the parable is inspired by God, it carries a wonderful meaning of salvation of all. The real issue is Jesus using pagan doctrines, using lies to teach the truth...
 
COMMENT:  NO, Levy, a thousand times NO.  Jesus never ever taught by using lies.  And as for "using" pagan doctrnes, He never uses them as though they were Truth.  Jesus said, "...because YE SAY that I cast out devils through Beelzebub, and if I BY BEELZEBUB cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out?  Are we to foolishly assume that Jesus is conceding that there really is a literal god named Beelzebub?   No, of course not.  But the Pharisees accused Him of this: "because YE SAY."  It was neither a heresy nor a lie for Jesus to throw back their accusation right in their faces, without conceding for one second that Jesus believed in such a Beelzebub god
(the god of DUNG).


What do you think? Any way this whole parable could have been inserted by men (Satan)? Would Jesus use/mention false doctrine to teach true doctrine?
 
COMMENT:  No, Levy, NO WAY.  And when Jesus warns those against adding to or taking from His Words, He is not warning against gathering all of the hundreds and thousands of letters and manuscripts and making changes in them.  It is only in the transmission of God true Scriptures that men add to or take away from.  The old manuscripts still contain the truths of God.  It is only later addition and translations into later and different languages that this is accomplished.  I hope this helps clear up this matter for you.

God be with you,
Ray


Btw, I wonder what else Satan have *removed* from the Scriptures. We can try "figure it out" if something in there is "inserted", but things that were removed only God knows... Since God warns to not remove His words from the Scriptures, I believe that just by the fact of God having added this warning in the Scriptures this surely also happened. Otherwise it would be included in vain...

God bless you!

Levy
SP-Brazil

Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.039 seconds with 21 queries.