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Author Topic: Your hermeneutics  (Read 3653 times)

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Craig

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Your hermeneutics
« on: May 07, 2012, 01:22:19 PM »

Dear Phoebe:  I will make a few COMMENTS       in your email..........

Hi Ray,

I must say that I find most of your bible interpretations seriously unsound.

COMMENT :  No you don't.  You find them to not fit the interpretations of orthodox Christianity.

 They lack much in terms of scriptural integrity.

COMMENT :  Integrity means:  "to have a steadfast adherence to a strict ethical code."  This I
do, but your arguments totally lack steadfastness to any strict ethical code.  My ethical code
consists first and foremost to BELIEVING the Scriptures, which you clearly do not.  Your attack
on my writings show a abhorrence for the Word of God.


For example, in one area you state:

“Jesus could not be dead for three days, and yet "descend into hell" during that same period. Then we are told that He will "rise again from the DEAD."  If He was visiting in hell, then He was not dead!

Where in the Bible do we read that Jesus died, went to hell, and then rose from the dead?  Nowhere.  The Scriptures are clear on this matter.  When Jesus died they put Him in a tomb. He did not go on a visit to hell.  They not only placed the body of Jesus in a tomb, but Scripture tells us that they put "JESUS" in a tomb:”

The scripture contradicts your assumptions on this point in many places such as:

COMMENT :   Oh really?  Are there Scriptures that teach that one can be "dead" at one location while being "alive" at a different location?  Well, are there?

Show me one?  From my statements above, it is clear that I believe that Jesus was DEAD after they crucified Him!  Do you?  No, of course not. How could He be doing the things you state if He were DEAD during that same period?  Do you have a Scripture that shows Christ to be alive while He was supposed to be DEAD?  Do you?  Here are five Scriptures that prove Jesus was DEAD after they crucified Him:   

[1]  "Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES"-- I Cor. 15:3.

[2]  David prophesied that, "...thou has brought Me [Jesus] to the DUST OF DEATH "--Psalm 22:15.

[3]  "For IF  we belive that JESUS DIED AND ROSE AGAIN..."--I Thes. 4:14. 

[4]  "...God the Father Who raised Him [Jesus] FROM THE  DEAD "--(Gal. 1:1).

[5]  "But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus FROM THE DEAD DWELL in you..."--Rom. 8:11).

Okay, so there are five of my Scriptures that prove conclusively that Jesus DIED, was DEAD, and was raised FROM THE DEAD.  Now we will look at your

five Scriptures which you say contradict my Scriptures.


1.     Matthew 12:40 “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

COMMENT :  How does that verse prove anything I said to be false?  I teach that Jesus was "three days and three nights i the heart of the earth."  Do you?  Where in the Scriptures are sheol, hades, or gehenna called a place of LIFE in the Scriptures?

2.     Ephesians 4:8-10 “ Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

COMMENT : Where is it stated that that these things happened immediately after His crucifixion but before His resurrection?  Where do we read such a thing?

One does not have to be "dead" in order to be "in the depth of the earth."  Jesus likens Jonah terrible ordeal in the belly of a great fish to that of being in the "depth of the earth."  Notice Jesus' words:  "For AS Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, SO SHALL the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matt. 12:40)."


3.     Mark 12:25-27 “For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush

God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.”

COMMENT :  I find it interesting that you skipped Matthew's account of this teaching and went rather to Mark's account.  And I believe I know the reason why.  You preferred the words "And as touching the dead that they rise" rather than Matthew's words: "For in the RESURRECTION they neither marry..." {Matt. 23:30), and "But as TOUCHING THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD , have ye not read...I am NOT the God of the DEAD, but of the LIVING" (Vers. 31-32).

Ah yes, "as touching the resurrection of the DEAD" God is the "God of the LIVING."  It is only by a resurrection OF THE DEAD that God becomes the "God of the Living."  How deceitful you orthodox teaches are.  Unbelievable!

 
4.     Luke 23:43 “And Jesus said unto him, verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.” (that was the day that Jesus died).

COMMENT :  Yes, Phoebe, that was "the day that Jesus died."  And since it was the day that Jesus died, how could He be ALIVE in Paradise, seeing that even you concede that this was the very day that HE HAD DIED?  Was Jesus a DEAD MAN in paradise?  Jesus assuredly did not say:  "You will be with Me in paradise, TODAY."  Did He?  No, He didn't.  Let's look at a better translation:  "And He [Jesus] said unto him--Verily I say unto thee this day:  With Me shalt thou be in Paradise" (Luke, 23:43, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible).

"Today" was the day Jesus was making this promise.  "Today" was not the day that the thief would RECEIVE this promise.  Paul tells us exactly when we will be with the Lord.

"At the LAST TRUMP...." (I Cor. 15:51-54).  And did you not also see in your unscriptural argument that it is not possible to be [1]  DEAD, [2]  IN HELL, and [3] IN PARADISE, all at the same time on the same day?


5.     Luke 16:22-25 “ And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.”

COMMENT :  And just how does this verse prove that Jesus was alive all the while He was supposed to be "DYING for the sins of the world?"  And where in these verses does it say that the rich man was being tortured in literal fire in some pagan place called "hell?"  It says that the rich man DIED. Now then, when a man DIES, and is DEAD, is it possible to be tormented?  Or to know anything?  What saith the Scriptures?  "For the living know that they shall die, but the DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING" (Ecc. 9:5).  You don't believe that Scripture, do you Phoebe?  No, of course not.  So the rich man DIED and was DEAD [Ecc.9:5].  And in "hades" (that is the word translated "hell" in this King James verse), he lifted up his eyes.  He was DEAD in a place called hades or the "unseen," the "imperceptible."  And from that condition or realm he "lifted up his eyes."  Is there any place in the Bible where we are told that dead people will awake from the sleep of death?  Yes, numerous places.  Notice Dan. 12:2--"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall AWAKE ...." 

Here sleep is clearly likened to death, and it is from this state of the dead, "hades" that the rich man "lifted up up his eyes."  Yes, of course, that is exactly what Daniel was instructed to write concerning the resurrection of the dead to judgment!  But you deceitfully try to show that this parable is speaking of a man who is ALIVE, while he is DEAD in hades!  Unbelievable.  No, he died, was dead, and as Daniel fortold, in the realm of death--hades, he was resurrected and opened his eyes, and "AWOKE" to Judgment.


I also noticed that you quoted an ex pope in support of one of your heresies, which is akin to citing the devil himself!  I do sincerely hope you will reconsider your position and STOP preaching a false gospel.

Best regards

Phoebe

COMMENT :  I believe that the Pope I quoted was far less deceived than you are, and to liken a Believer in Christ, whether you approve of his teaching or not, to being as evil as the devil himself, is something that you will bitterly repent of ONE DAY!

Sincerely,

Ray
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 10:54:07 PM by Craig »
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Craig

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Re: Your hermeneutics
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2012, 10:56:51 PM »

Well Ray, you offer many, many words but little substance.  We all know that Jesus’ body died on the cross and was laid in the tomb.  The scriptures however, clearly show that the soul does not die with the body.  They also shine a bright light on your hatred of the truth because you haven’t validated any point by scripture, instead you lean on semantics and re-interpretations where none are needed.
 
1 Samuel 28:3-15 “ Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.  And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa. And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.

 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.”

Matthew 10:28 “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
 
(Noting this again because you didn’t address it in your long-winded rant) Luke 16:22-25 “ And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.”

I pray that you’ll repent of your heretical teachings and for leading innocent people astray.  As you have deceived a member of my own family, I take personal offence to your false teachings.  If you won’t repent and stop twisting the truth, I ask that the Lord rebuke you. 
John 10:1 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.”
Matthew 13:24-50 “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:36-43  Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Matthew 13:47-50 “ Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth”

What have we come to when our theologians had rather trust in the words of the Witch of Endor rather than in the
Word of God.  Phoebe can prove that man has an immortal soul because the WITCH OF ENDOR said so, and we
all know how honest those witches are.

Here is Scripture, Phoebe:  "CHRIST died for our sins according to the Scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3). Do you see the words
"Christ's BODY died for our sins according to the Scriptures?"  Well then give me a Scripture which does say that "Christ's
body died for our sins according to the Scriptures." I have Scripture, but do you?  No, you don't, and it will take more than
the word of a witch to to prove man has a immortal soul.  Here's more Scripture, Phoebe: "The living know that they shall
die, but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING" (Ecc. 9:5).  You don't believe that Scripture, do you, Phoebe?  No, of course
you don't. Not so long as you think a witch has taught you differently.  What about this Scripture, Phoebe:  "His breath goes
forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day HIS THOUGHTS PERISH" (Psalm 146:4).

I give you Scripture after Scripture to expose your heresy, yet you have the unmitigated gall to criticize my hermeneutics and
say that it was only the body of Jesus that was placed in a tomb.  So according to your doctrine, the Saviour of the world is
a CADAVER!  Wow!  I firmly believe that you will give account for such heresy, one day. Well, enough of your unscriptural
nonsense. "Get thee behind me....!"

Ray
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Craig

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Re: Your hermeneutics
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2012, 08:37:35 PM »

Still no scriptures to support your false teachings?  Instead you need twists and turns to deny what the bible clearly tells you in so many passages.  So how do you explain this account?

Mark 9:2-7 “Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them. And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus. Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”— because he did not know what to say, for they were greatly afraid. And a cloud came and overshadowed them; and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!”
Matthew 11:11-14 ”Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come.

Now we know that Moses was dead and John the Baptist was dead, so who did Jesus speak to and the disciples see?  Humble yourself before the Lord and repent Ray.  He is faithful and just to forgive.

 
Dear Phoebe:  First let's establish one thing:  You are a liar.   You state that I use "NO scriptures" to support my teachings.
The truth is that I use dozens and hundreds of Scriptures to support anything of consequence, such as doctrine.  Show me
were I say or teaching anything regarding doctrine or major subjects in which I use "NO Scriptures?"  Go ahead, show me.
You said it, now see if you can support it?

You concede that Moses and John the Baptist were dead at the time of the transfiguration on the mountain, and
you believe that this is proof that even though they are dead, they are still alive.  Phoebe, are you acquainted with
the word "contradiction?"  Well you statements are contradictions.  One cannot be alive and dead at the same time.

Did they never teach you that there are four gospel accounts and that there are four for a reason?  Did it not occur
to you that often one writer such as Matthew may contain information regarding a specific incident that Mark does
not cover?  If you would simple read Matthew's account of this transfiguration, you would plainly see how Jesus
explained to the apostles exactly what it was that they were seeing:

"And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, 'Tell THE VISION to no man, until the
Son of man be risen again from the dead" (Matt. 17:9).  It was a 'VISION,' Phoebe!  A vision is a mental image
of something, not  literally happening.

And as for John the Baptist actually being Elijah, Jesus clearly stated that, Yes, John was Elijah who was to come,
but how?   Physically, literally, in the flesh?  No, let's read it:  "And His disciples asked Him, saying, Why then say
the scribes that Elias must first come?  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and
restore all things.  But I say unto you, That Elias is come already , and they knew him not, but have done unto him
whatsoever they desired.  Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.  Then the disciples understood that He
spake unto them of John the Baptist" (Matt. 17:10-13).

But did they believe that a literally, physical Elijah was resurrected into the man, John the Baptist?  Of course not. It
was recorded from the beginning before John's birth exactly how he would fulfill the role of Elijah:  "And he [John]
shall go before Him in the SPIRIT AND POWER OF Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the
disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord" (Luke 1:17).

You need to study your Bible, Phoebe, and stop your lying, and condemning you know not what!

Ray

PS   No more Phoebe, I don't believe you have any interest in the Truth.
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