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Author Topic: Abraham dead or living???  (Read 1829 times)

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newgene87

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Abraham dead or living???
« on: May 10, 2012, 02:13:47 AM »

So I'm on My journey to read Rays paper on the parable of the Rich man and Lazurus (it's just so long!). And I caught Something that jumped out at me with what Ray said, Scriptures says (which ray also quotes), and What Jesus said. Which ALL should be one, but here it is. Quote from Ray

{Here is irrefutable Scriptural proof that when a person dies he returns to the dust. Messengers or angels donít take dead people anywhere when they die. If this is literal, then they would have had to carry a "dead" Lazarus into the ancient cave of a "dead" Abraham. The "resurrection" is yet future (I Thes. 4:16:18).

Remember how Paul told us of Hymeneus and Philetus who "...swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has ALREADY OCCURRED [as defenders of a literal interpretation also contend] subverting the faith of some." (II Tim. 2:18)? Lazarus was carried (in the parable) into Abrahamís bosom. Abrahamís bosom is not the reward of the saved. Abrahamís bosom is not Heaven. Furthermore, no more than one person could fit into Abrahamís bosom. Itís a parable.

When Jesus gave this parable was Abraham alive in heaven or dead in his grave? First notice what Gen. 25:8-9 says:

"Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died ... and his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in a cave..."

When Jesus was teaching these parables Abraham was still dead. "Abraham IS DEAD" (John 8:52)! After Christís crucifixion and resurrection (nearly 30 years after) Abraham was still dead.

"By faith Abraham ... sojourns in the land of promise ... he waited for the city having foundations, whose Artificer and Architect is God ... In faith DIED ALL THESE [Abraham included], being not requited with the promises ... for He [God] makes ready for them a city" (Heb. 11:8,9,10,13,16)}

EndQuote
Now, I get that Abraham died (obviously), the ressurrection is not yet, and he is still dead. But what did Jesus mean when He was teaching on Resurrection saying,
Mark 12:26-27
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Even when I read the verses around it; he wasn't talking about Abraham before those verses yet Jesus connects that, God is the "God of Abraham..." with that God is the "God of the LIVING not the dead." Soooo was Jesus saying that Abraham was not dead but living? Now I see Genesis said, "he gave up the ghost", Hebrews says "he died in faith": so what does Jesus refer to when he's adding the principle of the resurrection? Since God was still refered to as the "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" so they can't be dead cause He is the God of the living? Would love the clarity. This scripture has always confused me. Thanks :)

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Abraham dead or living???
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2012, 03:07:54 AM »

So I'm on My journey to read Rays paper on the parable of the Rich man and Lazurus (it's just so long!). And I caught Something that jumped out at me with what Ray said, Scriptures says (which ray also quotes), and What Jesus said. Which ALL should be one, but here it is. Quote from Ray

{Here is irrefutable Scriptural proof that when a person dies he returns to the dust. Messengers or angels donít take dead people anywhere when they die. If this is literal, then they would have had to carry a "dead" Lazarus into the ancient cave of a "dead" Abraham. The "resurrection" is yet future (I Thes. 4:16:18).

Remember how Paul told us of Hymeneus and Philetus who "...swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has ALREADY OCCURRED [as defenders of a literal interpretation also contend] subverting the faith of some." (II Tim. 2:18)? Lazarus was carried (in the parable) into Abrahamís bosom. Abrahamís bosom is not the reward of the saved. Abrahamís bosom is not Heaven. Furthermore, no more than one person could fit into Abrahamís bosom. Itís a parable.

When Jesus gave this parable was Abraham alive in heaven or dead in his grave? First notice what Gen. 25:8-9 says:

"Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died ... and his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in a cave..."

When Jesus was teaching these parables Abraham was still dead. "Abraham IS DEAD" (John 8:52)! After Christís crucifixion and resurrection (nearly 30 years after) Abraham was still dead.

"By faith Abraham ... sojourns in the land of promise ... he waited for the city having foundations, whose Artificer and Architect is God ... In faith DIED ALL THESE [Abraham included], being not requited with the promises ... for He [God] makes ready for them a city" (Heb. 11:8,9,10,13,16)}

EndQuote
Now, I get that Abraham died (obviously), the ressurrection is not yet, and he is still dead. But what did Jesus mean when He was teaching on Resurrection saying,
Mark 12:26-27
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Even when I read the verses around it; he wasn't talking about Abraham before those verses yet Jesus connects that, God is the "God of Abraham..." with that God is the "God of the LIVING not the dead." Soooo was Jesus saying that Abraham was not dead but living? Now I see Genesis said, "he gave up the ghost", Hebrews says "he died in faith": so what does Jesus refer to when he's adding the principle of the resurrection? Since God was still refered to as the "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" so they can't be dead cause He is the God of the living? Would love the clarity. This scripture has always confused me. Thanks :)

Jesus was not saying that "Abraham was not dead but living." NO! He was NOT saying that at all. Pay attention to the words;

Mark 12:26-27 And as touching the [RESSURECTION OF] dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Matthew has it stated as "THE RESSURECTION OF THE DEAD."


Quote from Ray:

COMMENT :  I find it interesting that you skipped Matthew's account of this teaching and went rather to Mark's account.  And I believe I know the reason why.  You preferred the words "And as touching the dead that they rise" rather than Matthew's words: "For in the RESURRECTION they neither marry..." {Matt. 23:30), and "But as TOUCHING THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD , have ye not read...I am NOT the God of the DEAD, but of the LIVING" (Vers. 31-32).

Ah yes, "as touching the resurrection of the DEAD" God is the "God of the LIVING."  It is only by a resurrection OF THE DEAD that God becomes the "God of the Living."  How deceitful you orthodox teaches are.  Unbelievable!


To put it plainly, what Jesus is saying here is that people WILL [IN THE FUTURE] Rise again. Abraham is NOT risen right now, He sleeps! But what Christ is trying to emphasize here is that THE DEAD WILL RISE AGAIN and that God will not leave the DEAD in there DEAD state but rather bring them TO LIFE [IN THE FUTURE] BECEAUSE "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living.."

1 Corinthians 15:16-19 16 For IF the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Notice the dead are snynomous in the scriptures to those who have "fallen asleep." In other words, death is like sleep. Abraham is ASLEEP right now. The DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING! They are not ressurected away somewhere. This applies to abraham as well, abraham is a human who died without the promise but having seen it from afar.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, NOT having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrew 11:39-40 39 And these all [ABRAHAM INCLUDED if you read a few versus before], having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT the promise:God having provided some better thing for us, THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT.

The patriarchs will not be made perfect WITHOUT the branching in of the gentiles and they will not be first but rather AFTER us!

Luke 7:27-28 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there IS NOT a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but HE THAT IS LEAST in the kingdom of God is GREATER than he.

Jesus talks about how John the baptist is THE GREATEST PROPHET of them ALL yet THE LEAST of the gentiles will proceed him into the kingdom of heaven. How much more so then shall Abraham? Abraham is a patriarch, he is one that died obtaining a good report through faith but who has NOT received the promise yet. HE IS STILL ASLEEP!

Peter re-assures that the patriarchs ARE ASLEEP! THAT INCLUDES ABRAHAM! This is THE NAIL in the coffin! ABRAHAM IS DEAD!! ASLEEP!

2 Peter 3:3-5 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

What Jesus is re-assuring us in the passage is that this state of the dead is NOT final, God is the God of the LIVING! All dead people WILL rise again SOMEDAY! On that appointed day, but not yet and so abraham remains asleep to this day.

Abraham could not have been ressurected at this time because Christ is the FIRSTFRUITS of them that sleep. He is THE FIRST! No one before him, not even abraham.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become THE firstfruits of them that slept.

Hope this helps your understanding.

God bless,

Alex

Edited: Found some of the scriptures I was looking for.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 03:28:40 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
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