Is this really marriage?

[onelovedread]

I've read Ray's papers and email comments on homosexuality and I have a general question.
Based on the definition(s) of marriage found in the scriptures, is the recent phenomenon of same 'sex marriage' really marriage in God's sight?
Or is what has been declared to be legal in many states, still just only a civil union in the eyes of God?
I guess what I am asking is can man actually change the meaning and definition of an institution that was created by God?

[Dennis Vogel]

I don't have a problem with this subject as long as politics is not discussed in any form.

Please keep you opinions about the President, Romney, Republicans, Democrats, etc. to yourselves.

[Gina]

Hey, John

Lots of things are declared legal by governments but that doesn't make them okay or right.

I can think of worse things that are legal than same sex marriage.  I don't know what I'd do if put in the position of having to declare it legal, though.  I'd probably say, Hey, Whatever floats your boats!  Now can I have some peace and quiet?! 

[onelovedread]

Gina and Dennis
I really want to see if we as people called by God, can live according to principles that are independent of popular or political positions. Ray has written that as followers of Christ, we should not be involving ourselves  in political stuff. I am sure that I read that he does not have any party affiliation.  Yes, I'm aware of that and have no intention of introducing any discussion of politics.  I am looking for Godly, practical Wisdom. What I'm searching for is how God sees the major issues of life, so that I can live by them (sort of like a code). So I am trying to establish what is marriage in His eyes. Nothing political but how we deal with it from a  spiritual perspective.

[Gina]

 

I am looking for Godly, practical Wisdom. What I'm searching for is how God sees the major issues of life, so that I can live by them (sort of like a code). So I am trying to establish what is marriage in His eyes.]I am looking for Godly, practical Wisdom. What I'm searching for is how God sees the major issues of life, so that I can live by them (sort of like a code). So I am trying to establish what is marriage in His eyes.

Yeah right.

You haven't read Ray's paper where he explicitly lays out the truth?  What's marriage?  It's a ceremony.  It's a ceremony where two people come together and recite vows in front of witnesses declaring their commitment to love, cherish, honor till death do they part.  I would personally let them, seeing how God is not standing in their way.  Would God join in the marriage ceremony and celebrate the reception... I don't see that happening.  Ever.

[arion]

This is one of those things to be honest that doesn't seem that hard unless we've got another angle of some sort.

1st witness;
Gen 2:24  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

2nd witness;
Mat 19:5-6  And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?   Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

3rd witness;
Eph 5:31-32  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


There are many witnesses to what God says that marriage is.  That being said I don't see in scriptures any civil authority blessing or giving license to a marriage union.  This is a spiritual union and not a civil one.  The activists however desire the dignity which God bestows on the marriage union, after all how can what they do be a 'sin' if they are married?  Unfortunately I don't expect our civil authorities (don't care what political party they belong to) to uphold that which is good, decent and right anymore.  They can have their 'civil' unions.  God will deal with them in His way and His time as He does with us.  Better not expect me to approve of it however as I won't.

[Marky Mark]

So I am trying to establish what is marriage in His eyes. Nothing political but how we deal with it from a spiritual perspective.

Heb 13:4  Let marriage be honourable in all, and the bed undefiled, for, fornicators and adulterers, God, will judge.

As an ambassador of Christ we are told to come out of the world and to not partake of the affairs of this world.When one worships the creature and his ways, via going against the Word of God, what we have left is a reprobate mind,which in turn,is not a righteous way of thinking and acting. What we as children of God call sinful,the world calls traditions of men. This is the worlds way of turning the lies of Satan into their own misunderstood and unscriptural truths of the walking dead.

A sin is a sin no matter what type it is,its all a falling short of the Spirit of God. The Lord will cause all to repent and come to Him when the time comes,no matter what the abomination.


Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Lev 20:13  If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


Peace...Mark

[JohnMichael]

From the Scriptures, God only honors the covenant forged between one man and one woman (see Arion's post). Therefore, any sexual intercourse/activity outside of that covenant is a sin (man with man, woman with woman, or man with woman).

Marriage is legally what the government says it is. Those religious groups that try to get involved in politics are just taking Satan up on the offer that Christ refused ("I will give you all the kingdoms of this world..." Mat 4:9).

Plus, one thing to keep in mind is what the Lord inspired James to write:

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all" (James 2:10).

Therefore, if someone lies, they are guilty of homosexual acts. If someone hates, he is guilty of murder. Etc, etc. It really brings home Christ's commandment of, "Judge not, lest ye be judged..." (Mat 7:1)

Just some Word for thought

In Him,
John

[Shawn Fainn]

The problem isn't so much the sin, as it is the attitude behind it. We should be able to perceive and judge that.

While homosexuality is obviously a sin and I don't condemn homosexuals, I do take offense to the attempt to socially justify the behaviour by perverting the definition of marriage.

Isaiah 5:20
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

20 Wo [to] those saying to evil `good,' And to good `evil,' Putting darkness for light, and light for darkness, Putting bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter.

[Joel]

Not a equal rights issue for me, but a choice between good and evil,  and a moral judgement.

Judges 17:6
In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Joel

[zander]

I'm not sure ceremonies count toward a marriage in God's eyes?  Anything physical is redundant, right?  Marriage is just a coming together, that is basically what it means.  The church have a problem with it, but then the church has a problem with everything.  Is it "not right" for gays to be married in God's eyes?  Apparently so.  But there are hundreds of other sins aside from being gay.  Ive slept with women i am not married to, plus other things, its just one of those beam out of my eye things.

One thing i did learn yesterday was this.  reading Ray's article on "guilty of one guilty of all". It opened up another revelation.. It means if i am guilty of one sin, i am guilty of therefore of still being in the flesh enough to have the potential to do more sinful things.  So if God wanted to turn me gay tomorrow - he could.  Does anyone know the story of the straight man who literally woke from a coma gay?

Its scary how God can cause things to happen beyond our control.

[Marky Mark]

It opened up another revelation.. It means if i am guilty of one sin, i am guilty of therefore of still being in the flesh enough to have the potential to do more sinful things.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Its scary how God can cause things to happen beyond our control.

Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue is from the Lord

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Pro 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

[Gina]

...So if God wanted to turn me gay tomorrow - he could.  Does anyone know the story of the straight man who literally woke from a coma gay?

Its scary how God can cause things to happen beyond our control.

Are you saying gay people are "scary"?    That's not very nice.     Just kidding.

Seriously, I don't agree with you about the ceremony not being necessary - no offense. 

I used to think the same thing as you, but upon further study, it's clear to me, at least, a ceremony is absolutely necessary if for no other reason than to show that the BRIDE (the weaker sex) has given consent to be married/joined to the man. 

See, if no ceremony was necessary, then any schlepp could walk up to a girl of any age  and make her his "wife."  Do you see how they treat little girls in Asia and the Far East -- it's horrible how parents "marry" off their young girls (even toddlers!) to these older men or whoever wants their little bodies.  It's sad and disgusting and infuriating!  Grrrr!!!! And they say, that right there is my wife! 

But thank God! that's not the way it's supposed to be!  At least not in America.

[zander]

No but some lesbians are, geez, some of them frighten the hell outa me

Just kidding again.  No offence meant to anyone here.

I mean when i say no ceremony, i mean obviously there has to be consent, Gina.  The custom Asian way you describe is not consensual, so therefore not relevant to my point.  I mean 2 people who consensualy come together, in agreement under God, without the need for a ceremony are a marriage.  Thats just my opinion based on nothing other than i see the physical realm as redundant when talking about spiritual things according to what i've learned here.

[Gina]

Me

No but some lesbians are, geez, some of them frighten the hell outa me

Me too! 

[Gina]

Hey, Zander

I'm sure you're familiar with the saying, "A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still," so I'm not going to try and shove my personal beliefs down anyone's throat either.

But I'm sorry, I just have to say this and I'm not addressing this to you or anyone in particular -- just putting it out there:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/man-fathered-30-kids-needs-break-child-support-140439765.html

He did things his way (not judging!!  this could've easily been anyone of us), but he's still going to have to pay the price as if he were legally married to all 11 women.  Who wants to wager a bet he wouldn't have legally married all 11 women knowing he'd go on to have 30 kids he's gonna have to support for the rest of his natural life?  It's hard not to feel sorry for the guy.  He's very handsome.  I'd bet he's very charismatic.  I imagine the women were practically beating down his door.

[zander]

OK so to qualify further - consensual with one person and one person only.  Think that covers it?

Oh actually i did qualify it, i did say 2 people coming together.

[Gina]

We're totally veering off topic at this point (sorry John).

[Gina]

But I do think it was awfully good of God to have His contracts written down instead of simply spoken.  I mean, imagine the confusion and loss if not for the fact that we have the ability to put words to paper and some are smart enough to take advantage of it.  Like when it comes to doing business, for instance.  If not, anyone could say anything and potentially get their way -- good or bad -- right or wrong.

Consentual, pffft.

Oops!  I mean, conSENSUAL. 

[Gina]

And P.S.  Should I ever decide to get married there will be a pre-nup.  Oh, I can just imagine the fireworks then.

teehee