No free-will = Fatalism. Fatalism = negative thinking.

[24 Grams]

Hi guys,

Even though it appears I'm new here I've been around this website and this forum for a long time (account got deleted many years ago, so don't patronise me ).

The moment I read all of Ray's research I believed it.

This is especially true of the fact that we have no free will...this was obvious to me. But recently I've been having problems with this (or at least with my interpretation of it).

As you can tell by the title...free will seems to me like having a fatalistic approach to life. Of course none of us knows exactly what is going to happen to us in our individual lives but there is some insight. As Paul describes:

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy." (Pet. 4:12-13)

This has made me somewhat pessimistic. It is my destiny to be miserable, after all I'm being tried and made to suffer.

Of course suffering is to make us strong and we should "rejoice", but this is not always the case. Recently a series of bad things have happened to me (almost on a consistent monthly basis). So much so, in fact, that I'm almost certain that God is asserting something to me here.

But what? I won't go into details...but circumstances are driving me away from God and every time I try to make amends I only get further.

I know for a fact, as human beings the more we believe we are in control of our lives the more happy we feel. The more we believe we are NOT in control of our lives the more hopeless we feel. At least this is the way for most people and for me too.

[eggi]

Hi 24 grams,

The Scriptures say:

Rejoice always, (1 Thes 5:16)

and

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. (Phil 4:4)

This alone seems to say we should feel happy all the time. However, it is impossible that this is what Paul is trying to tell us. I believe Paul is pointing to the underlying faith and hope that we need to have. I'll be using an analogy from music. The faith and hope in which we rejoice always is the "pedal tone" which remains underlying in our lives as we experience times which are played in major or minor. The pedal tone remains the same even though the notes above it change from happy to sad and back to happy again. 

Paul says:

as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing everything. (2 Cor 6:10)

Clearly, he was often sorrowful and suffered a lot. So how could he say that he was sorrowful, yet always rejoicing? This is because of the Message of Joy that we all share. Our faith in the Lord and what He is doing and what He has done.

Both the Apostles and Jesus worried and suffered, and we too have and will have suffering and worries in our lives .

You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 1:6

But we can always rejoice, since despite all suffering, we always have the support of our Lord:

For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich. (2 Cor 8:9)

Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy. (John 16:20)

...casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. 1 Pet 5:7

Now about fatalism: It is not your destiny to be "miserable". Your destiny is to NOT be miserable. Misery is just part of the path that we all need to walk on in order to arrive to the finish line. I can relate to what you say about a series of event that seem to drive you away from God. I can only pray for you and encourage you to rejoice in your "pedal tone" (your faith) and to think about what lies further ahead (not next month). I felt like this many times as well, but for me it helped to "zoom out" and take a look at the big picture. However I'm not going to pretend that there aren't hard times.

Keep the faith and pray for strength - I will pray for you!

God bless you,
Eirik

[Gina]

Great response Eirik-- love it.

I can totally relate 24 grams.  I've gone through that a few times, but recently -- about 2 years ago it concerned one thing in my life big enough to upset the balance in other very important areas of my life and I started to feel suffocated and trapped, which gave way to anger.  Having absolutely no control over a thing or situation you want out of will definitely produce those feelings. 

I started to do what I would normally do at times like that when I got angry at God and was doing something along the lines of mocking Him, I guess you could say. 

Anger slipped into depression and then it dawned on me one day when I was feeling pretty good about things in the midst of it all, I was thanking God for something good -- happy that God made something that made me happy, like no one ever could. 

Then I realized that if I walked away from God in anger,  - for good, where was I going to go when I needed help and no one could ever come through?  Wouldn't I be praying to Him, then?  The saying there are no atheists in foxholes comes to mind. 

Then I started to remember that the just live by faith -- not by sight.  We don't live by the things we can see.  So I started to recount all the times that God answered some prayer of mine here or there and I slowly began to feel life was worth living again.

It takes time for sure.

I hope whatever you're going through, God will give you a reprieve -- long enough to catch your breath so you can at least praise him for it. 

All the best to you.

[Gina]

... to praise him for the reprieve, not for the bad things -- is what I meant to say.

[newgene87]

What a great topic 24 Grams. This hits home for me. Free Will has long passed my understanding but with all the "misery" that i'm going through NOW, it does seem like, "man, i know now i have no control over my life and it's events; LIFE SUCKS". gosh, this sucks  . But GREAT reply Eirik. I love music, so great comparison. i profess this verse in James as well as Romans 5:3, but i will share James. James starts off with a profound principle

"Count it all joy, when you fall into various trials; knowing the trying (testing) of your faith WORKS patience; BUT LET PATIENCE have perfect WORK..." (James 1:2-3) Theres so much wisdom in the ideology of "Patience working" in you. I say pray on that.  AFTER ALL "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise" (Hebrews 10:36). We have NEED of patience, yet Patience is a development and exercising of TESTED faith. Sign for that this life is a journey. And we need to keep the thought, that "He LEADS us in the paths of righteousness for HIS names sake: yea, though WE walk through the valley of the shadow of death..." Psalm 23)... that thought connects so well. This life is a journey that GOD MUST lead us in. Isaiah tells us that our righteousness are as filthy rags (Isa 64:), so God HAS TO LEAD us in the paths of righteousness; even though that will lead us to walk through valleys of the shadow of death... HE IS WITH US (ALSO, JESUS IS the Way, the Truth, and Life). So yes, the just (YOU) shall live by Faith, we are to deem it JOY when we fall (yea, FALL, no control, all-of-a-sudden, everyday fall) into trials, KNOW that the testing of your faith produces the very thing we have NEED of; which is PATIENCE. Trusting God in all things: for AFTER we have done the will of God...i like how the writer says "DONE" the will of God connected with "need of patience". Theres so much wisdom in that. so i understand on many levels. I am actively living in a very stressful situation, and it's testing me EVERY SINGLE hour of the day. But i'm praying and staying faithful to the principle that our tested faith is the working patience in us; that while we are in the will of God and pleasing Him in love: He will prove Himself. on that note; i'll end with: 

"Finally, my friends, keep your minds on whatever is true, pure, right, holy, friendly, and proper. Don't ever stop thinking about what is truly worthwhile and worthy of praise." (Phil 4:8 Contempary English Version). Stay faithful my friend. God is indeed with us

[Kat]

Hi 24 Grams,

I am glad you have come forward with your question and comments. I do think it is good to discuss things with other believers really helps our understanding.

I am striving towards having more confidence in God, trying to learn/embrace the spiritual as more important than the physical and not let things that happen in life disturb/remove my faith and trust in Him. With this comment I'm not trying to say that I am above or beyond having negative feelings sometimes, though I do think the more we focus on God/Spirit as we go about our daily lives the more positive we are in general. What we are learning spiritually is permanent and far more important than these temporary difficulties and sufferings. And yes I know that all that is far easier said than done.

I know we are yet physical and still have many emotional responses to things that happen. I do not think it is wrong to we get sad or upset and don't think we should try to inhibit or lose these emotional feelings either. But we need to remember that whatever occurs is God willed and caused and that should give us assurance, nothing happens at random. So with whatever that might happen we are in His hands and should be confident of His love and not be fearful. Take heart in these words from our Lord and Savior.

Mat 10:28  And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
v. 29  Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
v. 30  But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
v. 31 FEAR NOT, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[John from Kentucky]

One of my favorite scriptures is Philippians 4:6---"...Do not worry about anything..." (CLNT)

One of God's greatest blessings to me is that He made me believe that verse and put it into practice.  So no free will is a great source of positive thinking and blessing to me.

If you don't worry about anything (death, health, relationships, money, etc., etc., etc.) and trust in God for everything, then you cannot help but be filled with joy and happiness.  "...Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD Almighty."  Zech 4:6

[Rene]

I have grown to the place whereby I find it comforting to know there is "no free will" and that our Creator is in total control.  I trust and believe He has our best interest at heart.  Therefore, no matter what trials and tribulations we must go through, the ultimate end result is all good.


René

[santgem]

All the bad things and the good things happened in my life and still is, I thank and praise the Lord.

I came from a poor country and work in other country wherein this country never believe in Jesus.

I work for almost 18 years now in this country, just imagine the trials and tribulations i am encountering with plus the fact that I'm away with all my beloved. See, even the Bible are prohibited and the chances is to go for internet to get in touch to the so called "Christian" thing. Even though this country did not believe in Jesus, i still praying for them that someday they will know the Lord and the true God. They forced me to be converted but God is in my side.

So much for that, if i tell you guys everthing of my daily sufferings and tribulations maybe it takes hundreds of hundred of pages. I thank the Lord for everything, i said all because He said,


"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.  Matthew 11:28-30

[acomplishedartis]

wow, all these responses... so kind and beautiful.

[Extol]

I know for a fact, as human beings the more we believe we are in control of our lives the more happy we feel. The more we believe we are NOT in control of our lives the more hopeless we feel. At least this is the way for most people and for me too.

It may be a hopeless feeling if another *man* is in control of our lives. But remember, God is not a man. Who would you rather have in control of your life? You, or God? Which do you think is wiser and knows what's best?

This business of "suffering yet rejoicing" is another of those things that may appear to the carnal mind to be a contradiction, but is really just a case of relative vs. absolute (like Choose this day whom you will serve/You have not chosen me, I have chosen you; Come unto me all you who are weary/No one can come unto me except the Father drag him, etc.).

I have been married for 20 months, and it's been pretty turbulent at times. My wife and I have both had moments when we thought it'd be better if we'd never gotten married, and the subject of separation/divorce has come up. We've had a lot of fights, we've been apart for days and weeks at a time, we've struggled through my wife's illnesses...in that respect, it's been a pretty bad 20 months. Maybe the worst 20 months of my adult life. But also among the 20 best months. How is that possible? Relative vs. absolute. In this case, the relative being the earthly, immediate perspective and the absolute being the spiritual, long-term perspective.

In the years leading up to my marriage, I had a really fun, care-free life. I traveled a lot, had a variety of jobs, I was free and adventurous. It was great. I looked forward to having a wife with whom to share that wonderful, adventurous life. But my marriage has been very unlike what I was hoping for.

However, in the fiery trial that has been my marriage, I've experience much more spiritual growth than when I was living the adventurous life of a single man. In this matrimonial pressure cooker God is teaching me how to be patient, and teaching me how to love. There are many other benefits which will become apparent in time; those are just two of the main ones I see now. Do I have moments when I miss the freedom and adventure I had before? Sure. But I'd rather be here. The spiritual benefits are far more valuable and long-lasting. My wife longs for the days when we first met and we were passionate and in love. I tell her I'd rather be here, because my love for her is greater than it was then. Through our experiences, I've learned to love her even more.

And above all, it helps to constantly say, as Jesus did, Thy will be done--and to believe that it is His will being done. I know that this fiery trial is good for me. The trials aren't fun, but they are still cause for rejoicing. It is good for me that I have been afflicted, that I might learn thy statutes--Psalm 119:71. I am excited about the person that God is making me, through my trials. It's also extremely exciting to look at the big picture, and know that God is working all things after the counsel of His will, and that He will redeem all humanity, and that death will be abolished. There's nothing pessimistic or hopeless about that, my friend. 

[arion]

I know for a fact, as human beings the more we believe we are in control of our lives the more happy we feel. The more we believe we are NOT in control of our lives the more hopeless we feel. At least this is the way for most people and for me too.

You'll discover in time I sure that this is no longer true for you.  While it is true that nobody likes to be in a situation where they feel that things are spinning out of control and your doing the best you can to hold on by the fingernails, it is also true that the time also comes when God brings you to the place and understanding that you don't need to be in control and know all the in's and out's of any particular situation.  This knowing that God indeed is in control, that nothing happens apart from God's control, and that when the world seems to be going crazy and this nation is in turmoil....even in the midst of it God can give us the peace that passes all understanding.  When I was in control (or so I thought) I was always on pins and needles that I was screwing things up and nothing was going my way.  When I came to really know that no matter what happens it's simply a part of God's plan and will unfold in his timing it brings incredible comfort.  Our end is assured even if we are not his very elect in this life.  He'll bring us all where we need to be when we need to be there and this knowledge is enough for me.

[Gina]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7qTx64dhRM&feature=related

This is a song from the early 80′s by the Imperials called "Be Still My Soul." My sister Patti bought me their album when I was living with her herein California after having run away from home at 16.  This song calmed me down.

    Surrounded by the cares of life,
    Situations rise, they press against my soul.
    Desperate thoughts have blocked me in,
    Feels like I may lose control.

    A voice from somewhere inside me,
    Brings comfort, fills my heart with courage.
    And He lets me know
    that everything will be all right.

    I hear him say Be still my soul and know that he is God,
    He is God Stand quietly, He is The Lord.

    If God is for me who can be against me?
    Be still my soul, He is The Lord.

    Oh and just teach me Lord, to stay in you,
    When my emotions try to rule me,
    Just remind me Lord, of Whose I am,
    And show me what you want me to be.

    There is great strength, and confidence,
    In knowing that You are with me,
    No, now, I'm not afraid of tomorrow,
    What waits ahead.

    I hear him say Be still my soul and know that he is God,
    He is God Stand quietly, He is The Lord.
    If God is for me who can be against me?
    He is God Be still my soul, He is The Lord.

    Be still my soul

    He is The Lord.

    He is The Lord.