They make a mockery of the good news that all will be saved

[patmokgoko]

Hi family, have you seen how Francis Chan (erasing hell) and Mark Galli (God wins) are making a mockery of  the good news that all will be saved.I wish someone could write a rebuttal like the 23 minutes in hell one that was made by Ray.

[eggi]

Chan's video has the looks of a video introducing a new Apple product. With the right kind of music and all. He doesn't understand the purpose of God's judgments at all.

As Ray has said: What the world needs is NOT another religious book.

God bless you,
Eirik

[Samson]

Hi Patmokgoko,

I don't think that rebutting those Guys would make a difference, it might, but recently I got into a rebuttal/dispute type discussion with this Guy on You-Tube, adequately proving many things and it was trampled on and the individual in question hurled much slander and abuse on Me and other participants, including Cypress(A BT Forum) Member. Like Jesus said: " Let them Be, Blind guides is what they are and those that follow them, fall into a ditch too."

The discussion I'm referring to in the above paragraph took place about 6-8 Months ago and lasted about Four Weeks and I'll include it below for your inspection in order for you to see the outcome, maybe it helped some other viewers, but it just break me down and helped Me to appreciate that unless someone's asking legitimate questions displaying a sincere desire to examine so called traditional "Orthodox" type beliefs, there's not likely to be good fruitage as a result of this type of thing. View You-Tube Video with comments from users below, specifically check entries from the last Six Months for details.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9z38cyQR1A&feature=g-all-c

The Guy in question is named Universalism Refuted & Gtrjunky, I'm Oceangrove. Also after hearing His constant reference to "Context, Context, Context," I came across an Email of Rays that I thought might be Him, I include that below, let Me know if you see a similarity or is it just coincidence,  .

Hi Ray,

I see you set the challenge and then set the rules as well. Very haughty of you don't you think. But not to worry, I really don't have the time to be as long-winded as you. But as an old saying goes, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. So even if I was to do a thorough exegesis you would probably simply tell me I was wrong anyway.

The problem I see with your position that Jesus is Savior of the whole world is that it simply doesn't line up with other Scriptures. A text without a context is simply a pretext as another old saying goes. And, that is exactly what you have done here. You have isolated some verses that say that Jesus is the savior of the world, taken them out of context, and failed to line them up with other Scripture that defines what salvation is and how is attained. So you're argument falls apart simply on the basis of sound exegesis principles and you're poor theology.

But to give you just two verses here that shows that not even all those who claim to be believers are actually true believers, and are saved for eternal life, we need look no further than Jesus words in Matthew 7:21 and Luke 13:24. These verses also happen to tell us that there is some unpleasantly awaiting those who aren't saved by Christ.

Short enough?

Please do point out my failures in reasoning here since I am always willing to learn. I do wish you were right since I personally know family and friends who have denied Christ and I worry about their eternal residence. I could stop praying for them if everyone will end up in the same place anyway. Boy what a relief that would be.

Yours In Christ,

Brian

Below is Ray's reply in Blue.

Dear Brian:

Your sarcasm doesn't mock me, but rather it mocks God and His Word.

I have had people write me thirty and forty pages of rebuttal on a subject. I have answered a few of them in the past before I started getting a thousand emails a month. And their reply was:  "Well, you didn't prove me wrong on all my points."   I would ask for just one point in PARTICULAR that I didn't answer, and yes, you guessed it, THEY WOULD NOT RESPOND.

Now then, to your two verses of Scripture that you believe CONTRADICT my OUT OF CONTEXT Scriptures.

    "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that DOES the will of my Father which is in heaven."

    "Strive to enter in at the strait gate for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able."

It is YOU, Brian, who have taken these verses "out of context."  You take them out of the context of the immediate verses surrounding them and out of the context of the ENTIRE BIBLE, and put them in the "context" of the foreign "traditions of men" and teaching of "paganism!"

Jesus was speaking to THE JEWS in Matt. 7:21; and Jesus was speaking to THE JEWS in Luke 13:24 (He came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel). The Jews were the FIRST to be offered salvation and a position in the Kingdom of God.

With your unscriptural and evil Christian seminary theory that truth lies only in "CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT," you leave out with these two verses THE REST OF THE WHOLE WORLD OF GENTILE NATIONS!  Put that in  your "context pipe" and smoke it.  TOO BAD that no one taught Jesus of this modern "exegesis principles of theology."

Did Jesus really say:  "Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth, but remember boys and girls, that God's word is truth, ONLY IN CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT."  Is THAT what Jesus said, Brian? (See John 17:17).

"God is LOVE" (John 4:16).  But remember, Brian, God is love ONLY in, context, context, context."

"God is SPIRIT..." (John 4:24).  But only in CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Take God out of His "context," and He is no longer spirit, or love, or truth.  Hogwash!

But okay, let's stick to your context, context, context, theory and see if you have proven with these two verses that God will not save all mankind.

I said that the "context" of these two verses is confined to THE JEWS ONLY, for "in context" he was speaking to the Jews only, okay.  Now then, were the Jews the FIRST to be offered this salvation?  Yes, of course they were -- "go NOT the way of the Samaritan" -- remember?  But what is the context of these verses?  Not all of the JEWS that call Jesus "Lord, Lord" will "enter" the narrow gate to the Kingdom, will they?  No they won't. (Matt. 7:21).  Even of those Jews who "seek to enter" will "NOT BE ABLE"   (Luke 13:24).  They are the FIRST TO BE CALLED, but they will not be the FIRST TO ENTER.

    "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye [Gk: 'all of you'] shall see Abraham [Abraham was not a Jew], and Isaac [Isaac was not a Jew], and Jacob [Jacob was not a Jew] and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [JEWS] yourselves thrust out.  And they shall come from the east [Jews?  No, GENTILES], and from the west [Gentiles], and from the north [etc.], and from the south, and shall sit down IN THE KINGDOM of God" (Luke 13:28-29).

The Jews should have been FIRST, but the Patriarchs and the Gentiles will enter before them. The Jews will NOT ENTER FIRST!

But will they EVER enter?  Do the Scriptures state that "they will NEVER, EVER, enter?"  Is there such a Scripture in all the Bible, Brian?  NO, there is not. There are hundreds and hundreds of Scriptures [you gave me but two] that state that the evil, wicked, sinner, unregenerate, unrepentant, etc., etc., etc., WILL NOT be saved in this lifetime.  But is there ONE verse of Scripture that states they will "never EVER be saved?"  No, Brian there is not. There is a plan of God, a schedule, a time table, and "order" to who God saves and when.

Let's read I Cor. 15:22-24 in a more accurate translation than the KJV:

    "For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man also, comes the resurrection of the dead.  For even as in Adam, ALL are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall ALL [it's the SAME 'all'] be vivified. Yet each in his own CLASS [or order]: [1] the Firstfruit, Christ; [2] thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;  [3] thereafter the consummation [those at the end, the LAST]..."

Paul explains this perfectly and simply:  In Romans 11 Paul tells us that the natural branches [the JEWS] have been broken off and the wild branches of the Gentiles grafted in. But is this FOREVER? NO.  The natural branches can also be grafted back into the tree once again, and Paul says that they WILL BE (Rom. 11:24). Now what is the "context" of all this Jew/Gentile business?

    "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be IGNORANT [we don't want to be 'ignorant' of this context, context, context, Brian] of this mystery [a mystery that ALL OF CHRISTENDOM does not yet comprehend], lest ye should be wise in your own conceits [no danger of that ever happening, do you think?] that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL [if you don't know the meaning of the word 'until,' Brian, look it up] ... UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25).

Blindness to Israel was only to be UNTIL, UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.  Has the "fullness of the Gentiles" as yet come in?   No.  Well what about all of these millions and millions of "Jesus" rejecting Jews down through the centuries. Can they "reject" Jesus as virtually all of Judaism has done and still be saved IN THIS LIFE TIME?  NO.  Well then, just when WILL they be grafted "back into the vine" if not in THIS life time?   Why in the next, of course. All of these DEAD Jews will be resurrected back to life in order to BE grafted back in, but they will have some mighty DEEP REPENTING TO DO FIRST!   (See Phil. 2:9-11 Vs. I Cor. 12:3).

God used Israel for a time and then cast them away, but, as Paul asks:

    "Have they stumbled that they should fall?  God forbid, but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the GENTILES, for to provoke them [the Jews, Israel] to jealousy... For if the casting away of them [Israel -- Israel NOT entering the narrow gate, NOT entering the kingdom when it was offered] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?   For if the firstfuit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, SO ARE THE BRANCHES... AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED... " (Rom. 11: 11, 15, & 26).

But you see, they are NOT SAVED FIRST, are they?  No, they are saved LAST!

If the Jews are cast out of the kingdom and not able to enter the strait gate, when will they be able?  When they are grafted BACK INTO THE VINE, in the next life, in the resurrection, in the judgment. For in JUDGMENT, they WILL learn righteousness:

    "When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of THE WORLD  WILL LEARN  RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)

And finally, back to your "context, context, context" verses.  Clearly we have seen that there are MANY who will not be saved in this life. In fact, MOST OF THE JEWS will now be saved in they life. They will not enter through the strait gate and they will not enter the kingdom. They will NOT be the first to be saved, but will they be saved at ALL?  Yes, of course they will, we just read it -- ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED!

When? Why AFTER the Gentiles come in -- those who come from the east and west and north and south (Luke 13:28).  These Gentiles will all come in FIRST, that's what Paul taught us if we are not "ignorant" of God's "mystery."  So if the the Jews are NOT FIRST, what are they according to the "context, context, context" of YOUR PROOF Sciprtures to me?  Let's read it, it's the NEXT VERSE IN CONTEXT -- Luke 13:30:

    "And, behold, there are LAST [the last-called Gentiles] which shall be FIRST [first IN the kingdom, first SAVED], and there are FIRST [the first-called Jews] which SHALL BE LAST."

Oh, yes, they "SHALL BE" in God's family. They "SHALL BE" saved, but they will be saved, LAST!

One final thought just to expand you thinking out of the theological hole of "context," let me show you where God likens His chosen people Israel to the God-jeweled city of Jerusalem, and where He likens the world of the Gentiles to the most wretched city of the Gentiles, SODOM. What is the fate of the evil city state of Sodom and the evil city state of Jerusalem? Right now, God is calling a people from among the Gentiles, but in the resurrection we saw that Israel will be brought back to life and grafted back into the Vine of Life once more. But what of the rest of the Gentiles that are not chosen now and the rest of Israel who was not chosen for the Kingdom?

Ezekieal 16 tells us.  Read the "context" for sure, Brian, but then see the conclusions OF THE CONTEXT!  God says that Jerusalem [Israel] sinned FAR WORSE than even SODOM (Ezek. 16:48).  Yet we see that God will, nonetheless, YET SAVE ALL ISRAEL. When?  And if Sodom is also to be saved in future judgment, when will they also be saved?  Read it in (Ezek. 16:55) which tells us WHEN this will happen.

Seriously, Brian, if you think you can FIGHT the Scriptures and TWIST the Scriptures I have presented above, and suggest that I have in the LEAST taken them out of your 'holy context,' then you are FIGHTING GOD, and not me or my writings.

May God be with you, and open you eyes to these marvelous pearls of God's Word which have been trampled under the feet of swine for centuries.

Ray

Patmokgoko, interestingly enough, I found out through a reliable source that the name of the Guy(Grtjunky) from the You-Tube debate is Brian Morgan and the name of the Guy from Ray's Email is also Brian, I found that to be, at the very least, a striking coincidence or maybe not,  .

Kind Regards, Samson.

[patmokgoko]

Thanks, I feel much better now,I thought it was only in my country where universal salvation is being seriously censored but was amazed that it is being done all over the world.You easily can buy "God wins and erasing hell etc" but believe you me- Rob Bell's Love wins is not available in most of our book stores.Something must be very special with this gospel.Unfortunately/fortunately this is the appointed time for the good news and anyone trying to block this will only be trying to fight God.Ray's response to Brian is and has been my favourite.

[onelovedread]

Forgive them, Lord for they know not what they do.

"Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that does the will of My Father which is in heaven. MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? And in Thy name have cast out devils [demons]? And in Thy name done MANY WONDERFUL WORKS? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye [ye means 'ALL of you'] that work INIQUITY [lawlessness]" (Matt. 7:21-23).

[Foxx]

Francis Chan seems like he is sincere although who really knows for certain. I found his logic laughable though. He quoted the verse from the Bible which says "your ways are not my ways" and he goes on to say that he can not imagine punishing people for all eternity BUT since God is not us and his ways are not our ways then who are we to say that he wouldn't. Just because WE wouldn't do that doesn't mean God's justice isnt greater than our own. To which I reply with the exact opposite, plenty of people believe it IS justice to punish someone forever in hell so does that not mean that God would do the opposite of that? Furthermore, why believe in a God you apparently have such a difficult time reconciling your faith in? That's what I'll never understand, why bother believing in him if you don't agree with what he does?  Do you not believe in his will and sovereignty Mr. Chan?

[Cypress]

Yes, I've seen the Chan videos and YouTube debates. Like Samson said though, I think the majority of those discussions are futile. I left YouTube because I was sick and tired of being called an idiot, moron, stupid, etc. by haughty know-it-all Christians, and particularly the individual Samson spoke of. These people are blind because that's where God has them. Perhaps it was cowardly of me to leave, but I felt I had enough aggrivation in my life .

[Foxx]

well the church world freaked out when that rob bell guy came out with his book which hinted at universalism but in his interviews it seems he is a confused person who doesn't know how to articulate his thoughts and feelings. Not to mention what he believes still misses the mark. So Francis Chan, Marc Driscoll and a number of other big names in my younger generation of Christianity had to stand up and protect their beloved hell doctrine. Its really quite sickening, Driscoll and Chan, and Bell all come from mega churches teach things of little value and support the eternal torture doctrine big time

[doug]

I had read in one of Ray's teaching papers that anyone who belongs to a church denomination does not possess God's Holy Spirit. (a strong statement!). 

If that is the case, then why waste your time to even listen to these mega-church "blowhards"?  In my opinion it does no good to argue or debate the truth with a Churchite.

[onelovedread]

Do you think you could find that teaching? Don't remember reading that.
Thanks

[doug]

Do you think you could find that teaching? Don't remember reading that.
Thanks

Onelovedread, Howdy

After I learned of that shocking (to me) statement that no one from the time of Adam to Pentecost was not going to be in the first resurrection because they did not possess the Holy Spirit (in a thread that you had started and went astray with a statement I made) I spent nearly three weeks straight trying to tie spriptures together to confirm that doctrine.

Those scriptures that Kat and Ray gave me in that thread are still pending for me because I haven't satisfied myself as to a complete coherence to God's Word.  I sure of what Ray and Kat are true - I just haven't put it together as yet.

Anyway, I poured myself into those articles on Ray's site and elsewhere on the web and I literally have a shoebox full of notes that I have taken on the matter of the Holy Spirit for OT and NT believers.  And I am sorry to say that I didn't write down that statement about the Holy Spirit that I gave reference to.  It could even be possible that it was in one of the emails that he had responded to.  If I am remembering correctly it was in one of Ray's dissertations about the book of Revelation, but again, I am not sure.

I know that Ray did not use the term "denominational churches" and I only used that to differentiate churches and the true elect of God, the ecclesia, as some people get confused between the two.  Since I quoted Ray as saying that and I am interested also, I will do my best to find that statement again.

[Dave in Tenn]

When I read about Paul going to the synagogues to preach, it's (to my memory) rarely the 'leaders' who believed.  Most of the time, the leaders plotted against him.  There is a lot of value in public discourse, even if God continues to harden the hearts of the leaders.  That's been His way since Egypt and Pharoah.  A case in point is the open letters to Hagee and Kennedy on the front page.  Their minds and hearts weren't changed (and if they read it, they only hardened their hearts), but others have been.

All this is fulfillment of prophecy.  Everything is unfolding as He said it would.  Someday it will be history.  We might as well be on the right side of things as soon as we're ready.

                   

[doug]

Do you think you could find that teaching? Don't remember reading that.
Thanks

I believe this may answer your question Onelovedread.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,305.0.html

Secondly, do those in "the church" have the Spirit?

Comment: NO, they have "a" spirit.

If so, how did it come, why do they have it, and why is it so unproductive?

Comment:  Oh, but their spirit of Satan is most productive.  Along with doing "many wonderful works," they have succeeded in "deceiving the WHOLE WORLD."

If not, how do those in "His church" get it, since it is most often that they come out of "the church"?

Comment: Coming out of the church is the only way that one will be given the Holy Spirit of God

Like I said Onelovedread, In my opinion, this is one tough "hard saying"!  I had to get up and away from my computer and get a drink of water... and now that I have let it soak in for a few weeks... I believe that it is absolutely true.  Old "doctrines" die hard.  This definitely isn't "milk" for those that are in the church.  This teaching goes right along with the LOF Series XI at the heading "To Which Church Do I Belong".  It all fits together.

By the way - After I had skimmed through several LOF Series and couldn't find that particular quote, I was about ready to answer you by my recanting of that quote until a brother from this forum PM'd me with the link in question.  Again, thank you brother!

doug

[doug]

When I read about Paul going to the synagogues to preach, it's (to my memory) rarely the 'leaders' who believed.  Most of the time, the leaders plotted against him.  There is a lot of value in public discourse, even if God continues to harden the hearts of the leaders.  That's been His way since Egypt and Pharoah.  A case in point is the open letters to Hagee and Kennedy on the front page.  Their minds and hearts weren't changed (and if they read it, they only hardened their hearts), but others have been.

All this is fulfillment of prophecy.  Everything is unfolding as He said it would.  Someday it will be history.  We might as well be on the right side of things as soon as we're ready.

                 

Hi Dave,

You are so correct... I wasn't thinking clearly.  That's how we all learn... from other's debating the Scriptures.  That is where I have learned so much Truth.  Through arguing and debate.  You have very good insight.

I haven't listened to any of those big name preachers since Jimmy Swaggart and Tammy Faye were in vogue.  That cured me once and for all!  Occasionally on a Sunday morning when I will pay my mom a visit she will be listening to TBN and then quickly turn the station... as she knows how I feel about churches and especially their pastors and that I would just make an about turn and walk out the door.  Today's churches are nothing but "Synagogues of Satan".  I am repulsed by todays churches.

Thanks for challenging me on my statement, as I get carried away sometimes.

In Christ, doug

[onelovedread]

Thanks Doug.  You're a man of your word:)

[lilitalienboi16]

When I read your post, the first thing that came to mind was;

Isaiah 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Woe unto them indeed. They MOCK the goodness of our Lord and His plan. I am so thankful to the Lord that I am not them. I certainly do not want to be the one mocking our Lord's goodness. Scary stuff!

[Gina]

Proverbs 1

17Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.

18And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives.

19So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof.

H o w e v e r ...

20Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

21She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,

22How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

23Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

32For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

33But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

No one will mock God and get away with it. 
I'd hate to be in their Jimmy Choos. 
I would!

[Dave in Tenn]

No worries, Doug.  I was replying pretty much to everybody in the thread.  We just have to watch how it's done, and be humble enough to understand we all aren't teachers.  For my part, the debate is over with christendom's love of eternal punishment.  The 'debate' I witnessed was right on the front page of BT.  I still recommend it to anyone with questions.  There are other ways to be involved in the ministry of the Gospel, and scripture makes it clear that most of 'us' are 'called' to those.  All of us are called to the most excellent way.  Anybody may do one or two things reasonably well, but Love does all things well.  And without it, whatever we might do well is worthless.

   

[Gina]

I wasn't called to teach.  I learned that by getting into debates -- the hard way. 

It worried me that I was making Ray look like a bad person/teacher to those in Christiandom, even when I was able to answer people right, so I finally stopped.  (Girl's gotta know her limitations. hehe)

It's interesting to me to know that Ray was a roofer and what do roofs do?  They provide shelter from the rain and elements. 

So Ray provides us shelter, and what did I do?  Left this perfect shelter and went off looking for trouble.  Now, I'm staying put.

[John from Kentucky]

Do you think you could find that teaching? Don't remember reading that.
Thanks

I believe this may answer your question Onelovedread.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,305.0.html

Secondly, do those in "the church" have the Spirit?

Comment: NO, they have "a" spirit.

If so, how did it come, why do they have it, and why is it so unproductive?

Comment:  Oh, but their spirit of Satan is most productive.  Along with doing "many wonderful works," they have succeeded in "deceiving the WHOLE WORLD."

If not, how do those in "His church" get it, since it is most often that they come out of "the church"?

Comment: Coming out of the church is the only way that one will be given the Holy Spirit of God

Like I said Onelovedread, In my opinion, this is one tough "hard saying"!  I had to get up and away from my computer and get a drink of water... and now that I have let it soak in for a few weeks... I believe that it is absolutely true.  Old "doctrines" die hard.  This definitely isn't "milk" for those that are in the church.  This teaching goes right along with the LOF Series XI at the heading "To Which Church Do I Belong".  It all fits together.

By the way - After I had skimmed through several LOF Series and couldn't find that particular quote, I was about ready to answer you by my recanting of that quote until a brother from this forum PM'd me with the link in question.  Again, thank you brother!

doug

Another way that we know the christian churches do not have God's Spirit is the false and unscriptural doctrines they teach.  Satan would never permit his churches to teach the truth.

Here is an email from Ray where he lists some of the unscriptural doctrines that the false churches teach.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11315.0.html