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Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
doug:
Thanks for your encouragement JFK and Gina. :)
I am convinced that what you have to say is true. Do you know how Ray would say that he was playing the "devils advocate"?
Well, that is what I am doing now... only not like Ray... who knew the Truth beforehand... the Truth hasn't been revealed to me as yet, so I have to propose these types of questions in order to get it all straightened out in my mind. Can you follow me?
I know it will all eventually fall into place... but in the mean time it makes me "antsy"! I know - patience doug - patience! :-\
I'm eagarly waiting for you to get off work and for your response John. 8)
Gina:
Thanks, Doug. I totally understand and I'm glad you brought it up. It was a great question and one I'd never encountered before. Thank God we have all of Ray's material to refer to!
Gina:
Maybe this will also help:
Hebrews 11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Kat:
Hi Doug,
--- Quote ---The Comforter is another name for God's spirit. It was "poured out" at the time of pentecost. That doesn't mean that no one ever had the Holy Spirit before.
--- End quote ---
I think that the Holy Spirit certainly worked with/upon people in the OT, but there is no other way to be saved accept through Jesus Christ, He is key and absolutely necessary in the process. I know the God of the OT is who became Jesus Christ, but He was not yet Jesus Christ who died on the cross as a sacrifice for sin before He was born of Mary.
John 10:1 Truly, truly, I say to you, He who does not enter into the sheepfold by the door (Jesus Christ), but going up by another way, that one is a thief and a robber.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
v. 11 And not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Here are a few places where Ray speaks on this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3120.0 ---------------------------
Acts 4:12 And there is no salvation in any other one, for neither is there any other name, given under heaven among men, in which we must be saved."
The word "must" (Greek means 'necessary, behooves, binding') shows that salvation
can not come by or through any other ways or means, than the NAME of Jesus Christ, ONLY.
Hence, the emphasis upon that Name. Jews, for example, cannot be saved in the Name of "God" aside from the Name of Jesus as John Hagee teaches. They MUST acknowledge the "Name" of Jesus Christ.
http://bible-truths.com/part2.htm -----------------------------------
And here is their only salvation:
"And there is NO salvation in any other one, for neither is there any other name, given under heaven among men, in which we MUST be saved." (Acts 4:12)
How could anyone have the audacity to suggest that Africans and Chinese by the billions are responsible for their own salvation through their "conscience" without any knowledge of God or Christ's blood and His sacrifice for them? If a person can be saved by his "conscience," then he doesn't need Jesus Christ. Do you really want to teach such a farce?
Look at the twelve hand-picked Apostles. They walked and talked with Jesus day and night, seeing miracle after miracle for three and one-half years. Yet in Gethsemane they all forsook Him. Peter cursed His Savior three times in one night. And you would have us believe that man, in himself, has the ability to do right and walk the walk and qualify for salvation? You might respond: "But I never said that." Sure you did. You only say it's all of God and pretend to give God all the credit for salvation, but in the end, your teaching always holds man responsible for his own salvation. Why else did you invent your own analogy?
According to modern Christian teaching, if the twelve Apostles had all been killed that night in the Garden by the Roman soldiers, they would have all gone to "Hell!" Theologians would say: "They had their chance." Well, if salvation is a thing of "chance" then I guess they had a better "chance" than most people. But they blew their "chance" didn't they? Why can't we learn from these simple Scriptures? These twelve Apostles lived closer and longer in an intimate relationship with our Lord than any other human beings in the history of the World, and yet, after three and one-half years they all rejected and forsook Him, all in one night.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2385.0.html --------------------
John the Baptist will not be in the Kingdom before us. And that goes for all the patriarchs of old. Heb. 11 proves that none of them received the promises to them and furthermore, it proves that they will come into the Kingdom only by and through US (See Verses 39-40).
http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm -----------------------------
Here is the briefest outline of how God "saves us:"
Jesus Christ must first "CHOOSE" us (John 15:16). You don’t choose Him until He first chooses you. You have no "free will" by which you choose Christ. Christ CHOOSES YOU, or you aren’t chosen. (Be sure to read my four-part series on "Exposing the Myth of Free Will" on this site).
The Father then "DRAWS" [Gk: ‘drags us’]" us to Christ (John 6:44). You don’t come without an invite. What may seem like a "free choice" on your part to come to Christ, in reality is the Father dragging you by many unseen circumstances beyond your view or control.
By GRACE, God gifts us with FAITH (Eph. 2:08. Both are from God; man contributes NOTHING. If you don’t give God credit for all of your faith then you don’t have any faith, because faith comes ONLY from God.
Then "the goodness of GOD leads you to repentance" (Rom. 2:4). Our repentance originates in GOD, not in ourselves. If God doesn’t lead someone to repentance then they CAN’T REPENT.
We are spiritually "BAPTIZED into Christ’s death" (Rom. 6:3).
"For he that is dead is freed from sin… For SIN SHALL NOT have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under GRACE" (Rom. 6:7 & 14).
And it is the grace of God ONLY that will save us. But HOW and WHEN? What does it mean to be "under grace?" Answer:
"For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, TEACHING US [Gk: ‘to train, educate, discipline, punish, chasten, instruct, learn, teach’] that, denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should live soberly [with a sound mind], righteously, and GODLY, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12).
If you are not doing this and growing every day, then you are not being graced by God, and you are not on your way to salvation. The grace of God WILL DISCIPLINE AND CHASTEN us into obedience to all of God’s Spiritual laws and commandments.
"Whosoever will come after Me, let him DENY himself, and TAKE UP HIS CROSS, and FOLLOW ME" (Mark 8:34).
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I decided to add this last excerpt to show all that is require in God's plan for our salvation. So just trying to show you the teaching where I gained my understnding on this.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
doug:
We read in Heb 11:39-40, "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."
Was this promise these faithful saints didn't receive in this verse that of receiving the Holy Spirit or that of obtaining the first resurrection after death? Or something else? The answer to this question must, in my opinion, take into consideration that the chapter is about the especially faithful. Sometimes, it is helpful to concentrate on one word of a verse in question and find the same word in the context. (I know Ray's "context, context, context" so I believe I am using the term correctly!). In this case the word is "better". We read in Heb 11:35, "...that they might obtain a better resurrection."
What is a better resurrection? I believe it is a resurrection unto rewards. We read in Rev. 20:4 that those of the tribulation who will not receive the mark of the beast will partake in the first resurrection and will reign with Christ a thousand years. Actually, all believers will be raised at the first resurrection including those of Heb 11, but not all believers will reign with Christ. That is a special reward for the faithful.
This is best seen in II Tim in regard to believers of the present dispensation. We read in II Tim 2:12. "If we suffer we shall also reign with Him." Of course, in my opinion, our reigning will be with Christ; and the faithful saints of Hebrews and Revelation will reign on earth (but not with Christ). But it's the same principle, i.e. the faithful will be rewarded by reigning.
Consider also I Cor 9:24:25, "know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible". Note the "crown", it denotes reigning. This tells us that all faithful believers will reign with Christ.
So the promise the saints of Heb 11 had not yet received was, in my opinion, the "better" resurrection". A better resurrection is a resurrection unto the reward of reigning with Christ. Far from Heb 11:40 having to do with anyone not being spiritually converted, it is a promise "of some better thing".
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