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Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
whyisthatso:
Please excuse my error, the verse is in the parables in Mathew and Luke. My mind is in Revelation a lot these days.
doug:
JFK - If you would like to take the time... please unravel me. I know that you are a "tough" character, and I respect you. Let's keep our emotions civil. That's what this discussion forum is for??
I have presented some alternative scriptures to why I understand that there will be some elect at the first resurrection (even if they don't all share the same rewards or position with Christ) from Adam to Pentecost. I have shown some scriptural examples. It would help if you would first show why those scriptures I presented "don't cut it". I have tried to present why the scriptures shown to me don't prove beyond reasonable doubt what I believe could very well be, and that is some elect between Adam and Pentecost that will be at the first resurrection.
To be honest with you, I certainly don't object to the idea of only a few elect and only after Pentecost to receive the honor of being in the first resurrection. If God's word says so... then that is absolutely cool with me. But if someone were to pose the doctrine shared by Ray and even after studying the concept as Kat and you have mentioned (and I wouldn't be sharing the verses contrary if I didn't) I would not be able to defend myself as to Ray's position. It's not that cut and dry for me. I'm not a "man follower" and I question everything, as I believe everyone should.
Let me start out with baby steps so that you might discern a flaw and to see if I at least have a correct foundation.
When all of mankind is born, that person is given the breath of life to make him a living person. At the same time, God gives that person, spirit, to make him a living soul. That spirit God gives to all humans is from Him... God. That spirit has to be Holy because it is from God. Each person has a small portion of God's Holy Spirit. Albeit not much, but some.
Okay, now all people have a conscience to understand what is right and what is wrong. Everyone intuitively knows that there is God. No one can claim to have an excuse. We have no excuse because His spirit and His works declare it.
Now I also believe that there is only one spirit of God. God is spirit. Eph 4:4. I've stated before and I will say it again - I'm not a trinitarian, but you have to also realize, even between those that don't believe in the trinity, there are five or six different views.
Here is where it now gets sticky and I have tried to present scripture to support myself - then at Pentecost the Holy Spirit was "poured out" and many were "filled" with the Holy Spirit. In addition to the spirit that every one has from creation, some were filled to overflowing with God's spirit. This issue about the spirit is even more confusing because translations like the KJ took the liberty to capitalize spirit when ever they felt like they needed to, and a lot of times not correctly. This outpouring at Pentecost was for the gifts needed for the task at hand, and that was to carry on His church with the many believers, and sprinkled here and there some of the elect that were named before the foundation of the world. I understand only the elect will be in the first resurrection.
Now I am having a hard time understanding why for instance Abraham, Isaac and Joseph (not being Jews but Gentiles) were not of God's elect and therefore not at the first resurrection. And again, not necessarily reigning with Christ but nonetheless with a great reward.... kings, priests, lords, and judges etc. In OT times and forward to Pentecost, God worked with those individuals that He wanted for His purposes (including being elect) by using His spirit mostly amongst/ alongside and even sometimes indwelling that person to accomplish His purpose.
If it would be God's will for me to be an elect at the first resurrection, I don't feel that I could in any way preside over and teach, let's say, those saints mentioned in Hebrews 11.
Gina:
--- Quote from: doug on May 31, 2012, 09:10:13 PM ---If it would be God's will for me to be an elect at the first resurrection, I don't feel that I could in any way preside over and teach, let's say, those saints mentioned in Hebrews 11.
--- End quote ---
I know exactly what you're saying, Doug. Putting those saints way up on a pedestal. Is that what you're doing?
I don't know if you are, but they aren't deserving of that, and nobody should be doing that.
Should God will, God WILL equip you and all the other elect to teach those saints.
You don't have to worry that God would call you and then choose you to be an elect and then not equip you for the task. But that's precisely what we're doing when we think to ourselves, "I could never teach them." Well, of course not at this point in our walk with the Lord ... Duh!
But later, after having completely gone through judgment? Sure! Is anything too hard for God?
I mean, think about it, Doug, we're talking about people who believed in an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth and all that and hating their enemies and "tithing." Why couldn't God equip you for the job? You're basically halfway there.
Is anything too hard for God, Doug?
It is He Who is the Author and Finisher of our faith, not the patriarchs of old. They went through a LOT, but they don't belong on a pedestal.
I'm following JFK's advice and re-read Ray's materials, starting with the first thing.
God bless.
p.s. It's okay to ask someone a question. But it's an entirely whole other matter to expect them to dispel your doubts about the things you've read and expect them to lead you into all truth. That's not for Kat or JFK or anyone to do. That's God's job. That's what the Holy Spirit is for.
John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Doesn't matter if you believe that now or not, Doug. If God wants to teach you and make you an elect, it's going to happen. That's just the way it is.
Cheer up.
Kat:
Hi Doug,
When Ray had researched these things to the degree that he did and line up many Scriptures to prove it and I can see that what he says is the truth, I am not so vain as to think I need to put that in my own words, probably in a less concise way? So I just use Ray own words (copy and paste) that I have studied and proved to myself, when I can. I don't think that makes someone a man follower to appreciate and use the work he did.
--- Quote ---When all of mankind is born, that person is given the breath of life to make him a living person. At the same time, God gives that person, spirit, to make him a living soul. That spirit God gives to all humans is from Him... God. That spirit has to be Holy because it is from God. Each person has a small portion of God's Holy Spirit. Albeit not much, but some.
--- End quote ---
Every living creature has the breath of life. This breath of life is a spark/spirit from God bringing a physical fleshly creature (all animals as well) to have a physical life.
Gen 7:15 And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath7307 of life.
H7307 ruach - breath, wind, spirit:
Gen 7:21 And all flesh ceased to breathe that moved on the earth, of birds and of tame-beasts and of wild-beasts, and of all the swarming things that swarm on the earth,—land all mankind.
v. 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life of all that were on the dry ground died. (Rotherham)
Ecc 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4176.0.html --------
ALL men (and animals) have a spirit. This spirit gives life to the body and produces soul (feelings, thinking, emotions, etc.). But God dwells in our hearts and minds by way of His HOLY Spirit, which is a different spirit.
God be with you,
Ray
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We can see that a man needs a second "spirit which is of God" to go with their own "spirit of man."
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
v. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
In Romans 8 Paul speaks of those that have the Spirit of God/Christ and those that do not. So this is a separate Spirit from our own spirit/breath of life and all living breathing creatures have as long as they are physically alive.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
v. 10 And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
v. 11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.
God is not limited in how He uses His Spirit, He is able to do whatever He so desires.
--- Quote ---Now I am having a hard time understanding why for instance Abraham, Isaac and Joseph (not being Jews but Gentiles) were not of God's elect and therefore not at the first resurrection.
--- End quote ---
Not even John the Baptist whom Christ said of him "those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater," not even he will be in the first resurrection.
Mat 11:11 Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.
Now I would think that many of those great prophets and the great men and women of God in the OT could/would hold high positions of service to God on earth, in a physical sense. Just saying that because somebody is not in the first resurrection does not mean they could not still be given some kind of physical position durning Christ reign on the earth. Those born into the kingdom at the first resurrection will join Christ in the spiritual realm. But we do not know how the people will serve on the earth and maybe that would be a way for their preparation to enter the spiritual kingdom. Just a possibility to think about.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
whyisthatso:
"........there will weeping there and gnashing of teeth when you see ABRAHAM, ISAAC, and JABOB, and ALL THE PROPHETS IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from the east and west, north and south and take their places ( SEATS OF AUTHORITY ) at the feast ( " the great feast / supper of God .....Rev ) IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Indeed, there ARE ( NOW, present tense......the very day Jesus spoke these words ) those who ARE ( NOW, the very day Jesus spoke these words) last, who WILL BE ( future tense ) first. and the first ( Abraham, Isaac, Jabob and all the prophets) who WILL BE last ". Luke 13:28
Please compare this with the other accounts speaking of the same thing in Mathew and Mark and you will find a common denominator. In every case the subject of concern was position of authority. When we can understand that the "kingdom" of God is the very GOVERNMENT of God, then you will know why the concern was valid. And I might add, it is no mere trivial matter that Christ was born into the great Roman Empire, and was put to death by this Empire.
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