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[octoberose]

I know some of you have children who don't believe as we believe about God and His Sovereignty, but maybe as I do, you have a child who is hostile toward God in every way. A child who has every gift except faith. A child that breaks your heart. So, I'm asking, what do you do? We wait on God to do as He will, but what do you do with this heartache? What do you do when you know death will be a welcome rest from this terrible loss, but in the mean time you have a life that to live for years and years watching that child live this sad life? I pray and pray for God to intervene, but He is making my son more hostile to Him. How do God's people feel and behave and work with broken hearts? That's what I'm asking.

[arion]

Others will give much better answers than I will but if you believe that God is sovereign, if you believe that God loves your son more than you do and has a plan for his life which includes a rebellious spirit right now, if you believe the scriptures that in the end God will save your child and all will be well, then what are you fretting about?

I realize the heartache that comes with a wayward son.  We all are lost sheep and the shepherd will find each and every one of us in his time.  It's difficult to watch a child make bad choice after bad choice and become more and more miserable but for some of us God takes us all the way to the bottom before we are given a heart to desire his intervention.  I know your praying for him but if your also preaching to him then that probably needs to stop.  I don't think your praying for him makes him hostile as much as your attitude towards him which is reflected in how you deal with him.  I know it's easier said than done to 'Let go and let God' but for your peace of mind you probably need to do so.

If I didn't believe or understand the truths we are learning here I probably would be a typical wringing my hands parent.  On the other hand if I believe that God will get my son where he needs to be in His [God's] timing then it is enough.  I think in that case I would just stand back and let God work in him and perhaps in time your son will come to you and ask you about the hope that is within you.

[doug]

Octoberose -

A BIG "ditto" for what Arion had to say to you.

If it be any consolation to you...  there are many... many people in this world who have and or are now experiencing the exact "heartbreak" that you are experiencing.  And to a mother of a wayward child, I know that you experience the pain more than that of a dad.  But, nonetheless, I can empathise with you.

With my second son whom I was just getting to bond with he was taken away from me at an early age.  We both decided that I would be a "stay-at-home" dad, and I would feed my son with his mother's extracted milk while she was go at her school teaching job (btw, I delivered my son at home via a midwife in addition to his two younger siblings).  I even carried him around in a backpack as I mowed the lawn etc.  But, that all ended when his mom "took" him away at an early age.  Needless to say, I was devastated.  I am only interjecting a little of my past to maybe help ease some of your pain and to let you know that you are not alone in that kind of misery.

He is now my "prodigal" son and even with the extreme grief I have had over the past couple of decades, I have totally given him to the Lord.  His arms are one big tattoo (don't know about the rest of his body) pierced ears, smokes, lives with a woman, and well, you get the idea. But in a few days I and my mom will be driving to Charlotte, NC to watch him "walk" after four years of college.  That will be a blessing to me just to see him! 

But, like Arion said, it is ALL in God's hands.  I'm sure that all who will be reading your "cry to the Lord" will be earnestly praying that you will get the strength to bear your cross while you sojourn on this present earth.

doug
 

[octoberose]

I't's hard not to blame myself- it's hard not to blame my husband. I spend time thinking about the "what if we had made this decision or that " and how it would be different. But I know that's just folly. We wrestled for a while weather to have a third child or not, and I decided that God was leading us to have a 3rd and without him we'd miss a blessing. I had no idea that blessing entailed me walking in the shoes of heartbreak, not being so judgmental when other peoples children went the wrong path, and having to give up control. Not the blessing I was looking for, but I know for sure I'm better off with these lessons.
 But the heart aches. That's the hard part. The emotions are difficult to handle. It's like living in a prolonged state of grief. But I know for sure that every knee will bow and that includes my child. I shudder to imagine what this would be like if I didn't know that.  I think a lot about the 'beatitudes'. Blessed are they that mourn for they will be comforted. I think all of those blessings must be about the children of God  - we will walk in the path of all of them. Did Ray ever write about them?
 God must have given us children so we would know a little bit how He feels.

[lauriellen]

I think for me, it has been about giving up all my ideas of what this life should be about, the dreams i had of the ideal family life, etc. . I have come to the conclusion that all this life iS about for ALL (the sea of humanity) is 'AN EXPERIENCE OF GOOD AND EVIL'.  God has already decided what must be....It isn't a pleasant thought to me, but i truely believe ALL that happens in each individual life is absolutely necessary to our spiritual developement....only SOME begin the next step in their spiritual development in this life as the 'many called'....a FEW take yet another step in this deveolpment as the 'few chosen'.
As much as i would LOVE for myself & my family to be amoung the 'few chosen', i realize it is more than just a long shot....i think God inspired the use of the word 'few' for good reason. As much as it pains me, i know Gods ways are not my ways, and His thoughts and wisdom higher than i could begin to understand....so when i see my family, community & world around me being destroyed, yes my heart is broken, but, i remind myself thru the tears that God means it all for a good purpose that is being worked out. I take a step back and remind myself that WHATEVER is happening is the way God means for it to be for His purpose.....just maybe it isn't about the other person's behavior or state at all, but about how WE love this person in spite of his actions? are we patient and kind even when they are hostile to us? can we learn to judge nothing before the appointed time? Can we show them love and compassion even tho we HATE what they are doing? Death is the means that ALL will be given new life...its hard to accept the physical or spiritual death of our children....i have experience both....but, God is still God, and He isn't finished yet.....most hearts will NOT be changed in this life.....but i remind myself that I/we/they will be in good company in the 2nd resurrection....for that is were MOST of humanity FITS into Gods plan for all. We will all take these absolutely necessary experiences of good and evil and they will be the basis of our learning righteousness & obedience thru the things we have suffered, now or in the next age.
LET GO AND LET GOD is the first thing that came to mind when i read your post....not easy to do, but SO necessary if we are to survive mentally...we must accept that God isn't going to give us what we want, but what we need.....He isn't going to give ANY person LIFE until the appointed time, each man in his own order.....He may not heal our physical or spiritual sicknesses in this life....He may not remove the source of our pain, but give us endurance....He may not save our children in this life....I am learning to take a step back and watch God at work ALL AROUND AND IN ME....I am learning not to judge Gods ways or be angry at Him for destroying my family...even tho many times i just want to scream WHY does it have to be this way?.....we (and our children) are HIS workmanship.....He is doing His STRANGE work in, around & thru every person...He has prepared the vessels of dishonor from the same lump as the vessels of honor.....and He will complete His work in both....it hurts deeply....it SUCKS most of the time.....but its just for a little while....our short life is just a vapor and will be over quickly for each person......then on to the next age, the next step in Gods plan.....i think that is were I have to focus........the promises of no more pain or sorrow or crying are coming to us in the coming ages.

[cjwood]

awesome posts in this thread.  octoberose i hope and pray your heart has been lightened, if even just a wee bit.  for now.  lauriellen, your thread was especially inspiring to me.  as a mother myself, loosing my only child would be devastating, whether physically or spiritually.  i was a very "lost" case myself when i was younger.  such a heartache for my parents.  BUT, God the Father of Jesus Christ, IS Sovereign!  He KNOWS our heartache and loss.  He WILL make it right, in His timing.  the crosses we each bear sometimes knock us to our knees as we stumble trying to carry and bear their weight.  but, we do have Help.  a Comforter we can yoke ourselves to, whose burden is Light. 

i pray for you octoberose, and lauriellen, and doug, and to all parents who have had experiences of evil with their children.  myself included.

claudia

[octoberose]

I can tell you all know what I'm talking about. Thank you.
 Just if you will, keep praying for me that I can love well in the midst of it all. And that I don't dwell in grief.  It's not that it's hard to love him- I love him very much. But it takes wisdom to love someone the way they need to be loved. And perhaps God in His great mercy may yet lay that young man flat and give him eyes that see.

[Kat]

Jer 10:23  O Jehovah, I know that the way of man does not belong to man; it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.

We are not even in control of the steps/path of our on lives much less the path of someone else. Do not fret about what you could have or should have done, there is no what ifs only what is and it could not have been any other way, as God has declared the end from the beginning. God is creating in each and every individual that has ever lived an unique individual who will fit perfectly within His plan. In order for this to be so each individual has their own set of circumstances to live out in their lifetime, some will be vessels of honor, some of dishonor. We do not know/see how God is working through our experience in this life, both evil and good, to ultimately transform us into what we will be. But I believe when He has become all in all His creation will be truly a awesome wonder for each and everyone of us to be a part of.

We as parents bring these precious little babies into the world and love and nurture them and raise them up the best we can, but it is God who will determine who/what they will become. It should make it somewhat easier having a knowledge of the truth, that all will be saved. But as mothers we will always grieve when our children do not turn out like we had hoped they would. But on the other hand I want to think that the evil that we all experience, directly or indirectly in this lifetime may turn out to be of some great benefit to a person's ultimate outcome. I will certainly pray for your situation.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[space.ace.jase]

There will be many others in this thread that will give you much better advice, but all I can say is this.

Life is sometimes SO HARD - when one whole day becomes too much just think of making it through the next hour and when one whole hour becomes too much think of making it through the whole next minute and when this is even too much just make it through the next second. If you are still breathing you are still living and if you are still living then you are making progress.

Many times in my life I have been suicidal and this advice I've heard from somewhere helps me keep going, second by second and breath by breath. Somewhat similar to someone climbing up a huge snowy mountain - they do it by little steps.

I pray that this may help you with your heavy burden in some way. God knows what he is doing and remember that this life is TEMPORARY (it will not be forever), holding onto these small truths helps me greatly.

PS. You never know what is right around the corner.

[octoberose]

Thank you Kat and space ace, you never do know.
  I must sound like a broken record. This always kills me. Thank you for reminding me that it will turn out for good in another life.
  When asked by friends, I still don't know what to say in response to why God would want to harden hearts and minds. I know He does, but I still have difficulty seeing the why of it. I have no answer but am reminded that He said to  Job, "where were you when I laid down the stars?  ". In other words, we are not God and we don't have His mind. Is there something though I'm missing as to the why of it?

[Kat]

Hi again octoberose,

The church hold to the idea that you only have till death to receive salvation and the sooner the better for you. They use this verse to back up what they believe.

2Co 6:2  (For He says, "In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation, I helped you;" Behold, now is the accepted time. Behold, now is the day of salvation.)

So they think that this is saying that this time now, in your lifetime, is the only chance you have to get saved. But it just so happens that is not the best translation for that verse.

Young's Literal
2Co 6:2  for He saith, `In an acceptable time I did hear thee, and in a day of salvation I did help thee, lo, now is a well-accepted time; lo, now, a day of salvation,'

Concordant Literal
2Co 6:2 For He is saying, "In a season acceptable I reply to you, And in a day of salvation I help you.Lo! Now is a most acceptable era! Lo! Now is a day of salvation!"

If you will notice that word "the" is not in these translations, there is an "a," and that makes a big difference. Here Paul is speaking to the brethren and is telling them that this is "a day of salvation" for the few that are called in this age. This age is for gaining an experience of good and evil in our lives, the next age is for judgment and salvation for the great majority of mankind.

So I don't know if that will help you with talking to your friends, but I thought it might be a help to you.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

I know some of you have children who don't believe as we believe about God and His Sovereignty, but maybe as I do, you have a child who is hostile toward God in every way. A child who has every gift except faith. A child that breaks your heart. So, I'm asking, what do you do? We wait on God to do as He will, but what do you do with this heartache? What do you do when you know death will be a welcome rest from this terrible loss, but in the mean time you have a life that to live for years and years watching that child live this sad life? I pray and pray for God to intervene, but He is making my son more hostile to Him. How do God's people feel and behave and work with broken hearts? That's what I'm asking.

This is what you do -- don't let it consume you, Octoberose.  That's the best advice I ever got from anyone and it came from Ray.  I trust the man, what can I say.

God has mercy on whomever He wills and He hardens others--it was God's mercy that my daughters turned out so well .  And they aren't believers like me, and they're not perfect but who is?  They're not evil and they care about others.  And they're intelligent.  I'm very, very fortunate.

Are you saying your son is completely evil without regard for life?  Does he go around torturing and killing others?  What's he doing that makes you say he's "hostile" to God?  You're not giving us much information.   It's really hard to know what to say.  How old is he?  What makes you think you and your husband are to blame?  Are you able to recognize your parenting mistakes? ( I mean, you're parenting style, for lack of a better phrase.) Are you able to look at your son and say, "Wow, I didn't handle/say that so well.  Let me back up and try that one again...."  You know what I'm saying?  Can you talk to your son about anything at all?
 

[Gina]

Hi, again! 

You also wanted to know:

why God would want to harden hearts and minds. I know He does,

I'm not sure I understand the question.  Do you mean that your friends are the ones who are asking why God wants to do those things?   That's a dreadful thought.  Don't you remember how Ray taught that we need that backdrop of evil to show up good? 

I know there have been times when I thought He actually wants to do these things.  But I can't accept that. 

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel 18:32 Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

And John the Baptist and Jesus came on the scene saying "REPENT." 

Jesus said:  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!  

It's the same thing, isn't it.

So there we go.  All those scriptures to prove beyond a doubt that God doesn't WANT people to be hostile to Him, but to turn from their evil ways and be saved.  But how to BELIEVE it?!  That's the problem!!  LOL  How?  And it doesn't help at all to read it in the King James because it's written in such archaic language.  Beautiful language!  But foreign to my ears.  And I need someone who can speak my language.  I know English.  And that's okay!  Nothing's too hard for God. 

But I want to run in the other direction away from God upon hearing "He wants to harden some people's hearts."  As if He's some sadist.  That's just as evil as someone who tortures someone else for ever for no redeeming purpose w h a t s o e v e r. 

I'd much rather believe that what God wants is to SAVE everyone but He has to get our attention first (because we have to believe that God exists and is a rewarder of all those who earnestly seek Him.... did I say that right?).

We automatically find fault with God and how He operates, not because we WANT to but because we see no other way! 

And, we never stop to think to ourselves, How else is He (that's God.  Remember:  WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CREATOR OF THE WHOLE WORLD and THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE--God) going to get our attention?  Cause things to happen that get our attention, like:  "Oh my God, I didn't just see that happen--did I?  Hey, did you see what I just saw??*  Because God's that unfathomable.  But He's also everywhere.  You said, "we're not God."  No, but we're supposed to have him living in our hearts, aren't we?  What is He?  Sleeping? lol

It's going to take  miracle(s) to believe that He really is operating all for the good.  And He will make a way for us to go through the evils we encounter.  Not directed around them, or taken out of them.  But through them.  Like we must pass through fire.  God is like a refining, purifying fire.

He doesn't want to do these things.  He has a lot of pleasure He wants to do too!
Can you go for some pleasure?  I can.    But it's going to be a while.  But we look in faith to those things we hear believing, and not with what we can see with our physical eyes, not with our own carnal minds. 

It's tough and it's ONLY to get our attention and put our eyes on HIM.  \

Glory to God in the Highest but it doesn't end there:

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, so that we may be also glorified together.

See?  You have something in common with Jesus.  And that's a good thing.

Makes sense to me!

[octoberose]

He's 20, Gina. He's turned away from God because he doubts His existance- he has left the love he had as a child. The world and it's 'wisdom' has seeped into what he thinks and believes. He's very typical of his generation in many ways. He's  very bright, very well  read, and that just makes it worse. He does not feel toward women what a young man should feel. He loves us, has been scared to death at the thought of losing his family ( but we have not rejected him). Most people really like him.

[Gina]

Yep, know a woman who's going through the same thing with one of her daughters.  Yep. 
But it's hard to not like this girl.  It just is.  And I thank God for that, because that means I don't hate her. Right? Right!

It's God's kindness that leads to repentance.  Give it time and don't let it or what other people think consume you.  It's okay to love your child.

[Extol]

  When asked by friends, I still don't know what to say in response to why God would want to harden hearts and minds. I know He does, but I still have difficulty seeing the why of it. I have no answer but am reminded that He said to  Job, "where were you when I laid down the stars?  ". In other words, we are not God and we don't have His mind. Is there something though I'm missing as to the why of it?

Hi octoberose,
 Some of the Roman Christians were wondering the same thing. Here is what Paul wrote to them:

Romans 9:20-23, Concordant Literal New Testament

20 O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, "Why do you make me thus?"
21 Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?
22 Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction,
23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory --

New International Version, v. 23: What if he did this [hardened the hearts of some] to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory...

New Living Translation: He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.

As Gina reminded us, a backdrop of evil is necessary for good. We would not know or appreciate the mercies of God if there were not hardened hearts to contrast those mercies. If not for God's mercies, we would all be hostile towards God like your son. Your son's hardened heart reminds us of God's great mercies; it also reminds us of our complete inability to repent on our own. All is of God. And remember, all of us did have hardened hearts at one time or another. Each of us comes to God at the appointed time, and it just isn't your son's time right now. As God enables you, trust in His sovereignty.

I will leave you with one of my all-time favorite Ray quotes:

There is a great PURPOSE in it all. And all will turn out just great in the end. We need a spirit of wisdom to trust God that He knows EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING DOWN TO THE VIBRATION OF THE LAST ELECTRON.

[lauriellen]

I am not sure that i have the right idea, but i have so totally changed my world view, i hardly resemble the person I was 3 years ago....but this is how i have come to believe:
1Co_4:5  Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

to my shame, i admit that i was SUCH a self-righteous, judgemental and un-compassionate person before. I road my high horse well, looking down my nose at "weak" people who couldn't overcome problems like addiction, compulsive behaviors, weaknesses of any kind....i was raised to believe "when the going gets tuff, the tuff get going."... "jerk yourself up by your bootstraps and quit whining."...."life is what you make of it"....you get the idea.....i thought people trapped by addiction, sexual orientation, behaviors had either (1) made their own choice to live that life or (2) were too weak to overcome it......either way, they were to be shunned (1Co_5:11  But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat....etc)...and of little worth (Pro_6:16  These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
)...and  it was "okay" to feel that way about them, because doesn't God also hate them?....

But like Paul, I was knocked to my knees....completely shatterred....and as i sat in the ruins of my 'house built on the sand."....my heart was changed....The thought that we have no FREE will, that each life was predetermined as to what must be, and all vessels are formed from the same lump by God himself, just changed EVERYTHING for me.....

It is NOT that i  believe that anything goes, or that nothing is a sin....it is just that i see people as PRISONERS of sin and completely UN-able to free themselves without the direct intervention of God. ALL mankind is in BONDAGE until and unless we are freed by our heavenly Father, in the appointed time, which i also reaalized would NOT be in this age for most of humanity. Now my heart weeps for those prisoners, i mourne for their losses and sufferings. I see how precious and valueable EVERY life is......

Oh that i would have had this knowledge and this heart when i began raising my boys! Sometimes i just sit and cry like a baby when i think of SOOOOO many things i would have done differently, and how different things might be now if i had.......How many relationships with friends and family did i DESTROY because of my judgemental attitude?....my stomache hurts just thinking about it.......But i just have to get up and dust myself off and remind myself that ALL is of God.....ALL in the world is just exactly as He planned and purposed it to be...

Isa 25:1  LORD, you are my God; I will exalt you and praise your name, for you have done marvelous things, plans made long ago in faithfulness and truth.
Isa 25:4  For you have been a stronghold for the poor, a stronghold for the needy in distress, a shelter from the storm and a shade from the heat—for the blistering attack from the ruthless is like a rainstorm beating against a wall,
 Isa 25:6  And in this mountain Jehovah of Hosts shall make a feast of fat things for all the people, a feast of wine on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of refined wine on the lees.
Isa 25:7  And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering which covers all people, and the veil that is woven over all nations.
Isa 25:8  He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord Jehovah will wipe away tears from all faces. And He shall take away from all the earth the rebuke of His people. For Jehovah has spoken.
Isa 25:9  And one shall say in that day, Lo, this is our God. We have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is Jehovah; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.

[Gina]

You definitely have the right idea, Lauriellen.

[octoberose]

Amen and amen.
 I came just needing to know how to deal with pain and yet not lose my ultimate joy in the Lord. I think I've received that. I hope some of the others who read this also profit from your wisdom and kindness. We all have a burdens to carry. I'm going to copy this and remember it.

[HoneyLamb56]

Octoberose, I understand where you're coming from; my parents are still in the "church" and I think because of their age they keep preaching to my brothers; they want my brothers to change their ways before they (my parents die, if they are taken first); my parents feel that they have to do something; they don't judge them, even tho it breaks their hearts...they just feel it their mission to change them; I try to tell them differently but they don't hear (God's plan).

Lauriellen, you have responded so eloquently; your words really hit my heart and mind. 
So much edification on this site.
I'm going to save all the responses and let my parents read; guess my mission is to change my parents (lol)