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Author Topic: Spurious Passage Revisited  (Read 8771 times)

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HoneyLamb56

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Spurious Passage Revisited
« on: June 09, 2012, 12:25:46 PM »

I was re-reading Ray's article "Rules to Pray By":

"And there appeared an angel unto Him from heaven, strengthening Him. And being in an agony He prayed more earnestly: and His sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground" (Luke 22:43-44).

I doubt that any of us can ever fully appreciate what unfathomable human trauma and agony was taking place for those three hours in the garden that night two thousand years ago. The eternal destiny of the entire human race was at stake, and Jesus KNEW IT! And believe me, Jesus’ Father was agonizing right along with His Son:

"In all their afflictions, He [GOD] was afflicted… in His love and in His pity He redeemed them…" (Isa. 63:9). 

I am confused by this as Luke 22:43-44 is in the list of spurious passages.  I know this does not change the context of how to pray but why did Ray quote these verses?  if these verses are then not spurious, it leaves me wondering who witnessed the angel ministering to Jesus and who saw the sweats of blood because it also states that the disciples were asleep?

I tried a cusory search on discussion of these two spurious passages and could not readily find anything.  Any clarification would be appreciated.

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Kat

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2012, 03:59:21 PM »


Hi HoneyLamb,

Ray did not learn about Tischendorf’s list of spurious Bible verses until he was preparing for a conference in 07. I think that his article on 'Praying by God's Rules' came before that. So that would be why he used that passage.

Now Jesus does state that He found the disciples asleep after He returned from praying for an hour.

Mat 26:40  And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

Now thought they were sleeping when He returned that does not mean they were asleep the whole time. I'm thinking that at least one could have been awake some of that time to report/witness about the angel. But then again those Scriptures of the angel are said to be spurious, so maybe it did not actually occur at all. But this idea (of the angel) could have been believed and passed down in the early church and was written as a note on the page of a scroll, then was added to the Scripture later by a copyists that believed it was part of the Scripture (this is said to be how some spurious things got added to Scripture).

Anyway whether this was real or not it does not take away from the event, so I'm not so concerned about it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 06:05:37 PM by Kat »
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2012, 05:17:54 PM »

Unlike most other preachers, Ray changed his mind on a few somewhat minor issues and was not afraid to admit it.

Thanks Kathy.
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2012, 07:16:00 PM »

I respect Ray for being willing to change something as led by God's Spirit.  How rare is that?

In his April 2, 2011 message, third paragraph from the bottom, Ray admits his trinity paper did not bring all the scriptures together on the Enigma of God issue he was studying this past year.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12934.0.html

Yep, he has my respect.
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HoneyLamb56

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2012, 10:03:28 AM »

Thank you Kat, Dennis and John for the clarification.   There is so much material and discussion that I had probably read something along what you said Kat that I just didn't remember.  You are a patient group, thank God.   :)
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Extol

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2012, 10:57:49 AM »

In his recent Judas article, Ray mentioned another spurious passage, Luke 23:34--

Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

This is one of those passages that sounds like something Jesus might say (knowing what we know about the plan of God), so I don't think it's that big a deal to me. Just curious if anyone knows why he included this in the article...
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Kat

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2012, 01:50:57 PM »


Well it's a pretty long list and it's hard for me to remember everything that on it all the time. Also you get used to using these Scriptures and just don't always think about checking to see if they are on the spurious list.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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mmijares

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2012, 12:07:16 AM »

Did Ray say anything as to how we treat spurious passages?  I searched the forum but found nothing.  Sorry if this was discussed before.

Thanks,
-Mike  :-\
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cherokee

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2012, 09:25:12 AM »

Mike,

Ray went over the spurious passages in the 2007 conference on How We Got The Bible.
Here is the link to it.
 http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.msg49001.html
Go down to reply #23 and scroll past the spurious passages.

Blessings,
Suzie
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mmijares

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2012, 01:16:43 AM »

Thank you Suzie.
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Duane

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 12:33:56 AM »

Going back to the original question:  It DOES NOT say that Jesus "sweat great drops of blood"  it sez:
Luke 22:44 "...and His sweat was as (if) it WERE great drops of blood falling down to the ground."
Hope this helps understand the agony of Jesus.
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Gina

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2012, 03:10:00 AM »

In his recent Judas article, Ray mentioned another spurious passage, Luke 23:34--

Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

This is one of those passages that sounds like something Jesus might say (knowing what we know about the plan of God), so I don't think it's that big a deal to me. Just curious if anyone knows why he included this in the article...

Hi there Extol.

I about fell off my chair when I read that was spurious (about a year or so ago).  I should be more like you and not get so worked up so easily by things like that. 

Yeah, I don't understand why he used that passage either.   Maybe because we don't have the originals of any of the manuscripts, only copies of the originals--so who knows for absolute certain what those originals said.

But it does sound like something He would've said.  Or that's me looking at Jesus through the rose-colored glasses of Christendom.  I don't know.

But I want to know, Why would He say that? 

They knew what they were doing!  They knew exactly what they were doing.  They might not have known WHY they were doing it, but they knew He was innocent and never did anything wrong and that they were only going along with the desires of those who were chanting for His death, and that they were total cowards. 

They knew what Barabas was!   And yeah, I've heard the lofty schpeel about how Barabas' freedom is prophetic / symbolic of Jesus setting the "captive" free by paying the penalty for sin.  But I call foul on that because at that point Jesus hadn't even died or even been hung on the cross.  Death is the penalty for sin -- not simply the shedding of blood.

If Jesus ever said "Father forgive them for they know NOT what they do..."  I'll eat my hat.  (What does that mean anyway:  "I'll eat my hat."  God I hope it's not too embarrassing. :D )

But then I had another problem to work out. 

Acts 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”


And I thought, Oh great!  If Stephen said that, then that means maybe Jesus really did say the other verse. 

But look at what Stephen really said:

"Lord, do not hold this sin against them "; he never said:  for they know not what they do. 

They did too know what they were doing!  They may not have understood WHY they were doing it.  Honestly, how sick and ignorant does a person have to be to stone an innocent man to death who was preaching salvation and not feel even the slightest twinge of guilt?

But I suppose he wouldn't have been out of line to say that.  And when I figure how Saul (later Paul) was there casting his vote against Stephen (doing it out of ignorance), for sure Jesus did answer Stephen's prayer.  Jesus didn't hold that sin against Paul, without a doubt.

I guess because I can't picture myself saying those words, that's why I personally have a hard time believing he said them.  They sound a little too lofty or something for me. 

But now it dawns on me that maybe the reason I'm having trouble there too is because those were words that God inspired Stephen to say.  It wasn't that Stephen was some super holy, humble man, but simply a man that God chose to do that miracle through.  I mean, it would take a miracle for anyone to respond that way to something so horrific.  Do you agree?

EDIT:  I just remembered Hebrews 12:24 says:  "...and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel."  And that leads me to believe that Jesus at the very least said, "Father forgive them."

Does that help at all?  (I talk a lot, don't I!  Geez.  Sorry about that.)


« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 04:38:13 AM by Gina »
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doug

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2012, 07:52:54 PM »



Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.
 

Yeah, I don't understand why he used that passage either.   

But it does sound like something He would've said. 

But I want to know, Why would He say that? 

They knew what they were doing!  They knew exactly what they were doing. 

If Jesus ever said "Father forgive them for they know NOT what they do..."  I'll eat my hat. 

Hello Gina,

Maybe to help you out in your study of this passage you have to consider that when Jesus was speaking to a crowd, He spoke in parables.  In the last part of the phrase - for they no not what they do; what do you suppose the spiritual application could be?  At this point, as I have not checked it out, I wouldn't be able to help you.  Except it may go along the lines of... they will not know that they will have to experience working out their salvation with greater stripes in the Kingdom Age?

p.s.  I've been told that hats have a very sweaty flavor and that they also tend to make one constipated... wouldn't what for you to have to go thru that experience....
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 08:03:24 PM by doug »
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Gina

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2012, 10:54:58 PM »

haha,  Yeah, I wouldn't want to go through that either.  Thanks.

Yes, I realize that they didn't understand Jesus' parables so they couldn't repent and be healed.

Here's why I say they knew WHAT they were doing, but not necessarily why they were doing it:

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that you do, except God be with him.

Nicodemus acknowledged to Jesus, "we [me and my pharisee friends] know that you are a teacher come from God, for no man can do these miracles that you do, except God be with him.

Matt 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent


John 2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Jesus knew the hearts of men.  He knew they knew well and good they were condemning Him for nothing, but they did it anyway.

Judas walked with Jesus for three and a half years.  He knew for sure that Jesus was innocent.

They were all extremely jealous of Him.  Every last one of them.  That's not to say that they could have done any differently because it had to be that way. 

If they didn't know what they were doing was wrong, if they didn't know that they were condemning an innocent man, I'll eat that hat.  But I really don't think I'm going to have to eat that hat.  ;)  I don't know what else to say.

I guess what I'm saying is, I have no problem with that passage being spurious; but I don't take issue with Ray using it in his Judas paper either.  I thank God I was not in Judas' shoes.  There but for the grace of God go I.  I know my heart--it's no better than theirs and I can definitely see myself having done what Judas and the others did given the same set of circumstances.

I hope that makes sense.   :)

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santgem

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2012, 06:37:19 AM »

In his recent Judas article, Ray mentioned another spurious passage, Luke 23:34--

Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

This is one of those passages that sounds like something Jesus might say (knowing what we know about the plan of God), so I don't think it's that big a deal to me. Just curious if anyone knows why he included this in the article...


Hello Extol,

Are you referring to the article "Was it better for Judas had he not been born"?



Oh that Christians would believe the Word of God.

Is it possible for Jesus to forgive Judas?  Possible?  He already has forgiven Judas for his sins!  Need proof?

Listen carefully:  Were those who spit in the face of Jesus;  punched Him in the mouth;  beat Him within an inch of His life;  nailed Him to a rugged cross;  and pierced Him with a spear; somehow guilty of a LESSER crime than that of Judas giving Jesus a KISS ON THE CHECK?!  Give me a break.  How do intelligent theologians come up with such utter nonsense.  What did Jesus say regarding all those involved in His condemnation, torture, and death?  Let's read it:

"Then said Jesus, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

FORGIVE THEM!  Who are the "them?"  Don't you think it includes "all of them?"  Who are the "all of them" responsible in one way or another for the crucifixion of our LORD?  Certainly it involved all those who took part in any aspect of His real crucifixion, and that would include not only those who nailed Him to the cross, but those who beat Him; and those who mocked Him; and those priests who falsely condemned Him.  Is not Judas also included in all of "them?"

Who else?  What about the Pharisees of whom Jesus said:  "...Ye seek to KILL Me...."  (John 8:37)?  What about all those who assembled together the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the people, the high priest, the deputies, the high council, and all those who "Consulted that they might take Jesus by subtility, and KILL Him" (Matt. 26:4)? There were multitudes besides Judas.

What about all those Jews that said, "His blood be on us and on our children"  (Matt. 27:25)?  What about all those Jesus included when we read that "He [Jesus] would not walk in Judea, because the JEWS sought to kill Him" (John 7:1)?  What about the entire nation of Israel?   Were they included in the crucifixion of Jesus?  Answer: "...let it be known to you all and to the entire  people of Israel in the name of Jesus Christ, the Nazarene, Whom YOU [the entire nation] CRUCIFY" (Acts 4:10)?  What about all the Gentiles? Are we guilty as well as the Jews?  Did not Paul say that the sins of the Gentiles were also covered by His crucifixion:

"For I delivered unto you [you Gentile Corinthians & other Gentiles -- see Phil. 3:3] first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins  according to the scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3). The truth is that Jesus was put to the cross by the sins of the whole world. We are all responsible.  But what is Jesus' response to all these sins?  "Forgive them."  In God's heart and mind, we are already forgiven:

 "God Who quickens the dead, and calls those things which are not as though they were" (Rom . 4:17).

The forgiveness of the whole world is not as yet a fact, BUT IT WILL BE.  When? 

"WHEN Thy Judgments are in the earth, [then] the inhabitants of THE WHOLE WORLD will learn righteousness" (Isaiah 26:9).

God has prophesied the outcome of the human race, and that outcome is that there shall be no more pain, death, sorrow or curse (Rev. 21), and that God will be "ALL in all"  (I Cor. 15:28).

Yes, Judas did a evil and cowardly thing, but it was written and prophesied, and therefore someone had to do it.  But let's not think that Judas will be forever doomed to a hellish torture. He will not.  Judas repented and therefore is qualified for salvation: 

"But this Man [Jesus],  because He continues forever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.   Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them"  (Heb. 7:24-25).

The whole human race has this promise.



It is not spurious passages. What my understanding is that Judas and all of us are included in Jesus  saying that "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".


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Extol

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2012, 12:43:22 PM »

In his recent Judas article, Ray mentioned another spurious passage, Luke 23:34--

Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

This is one of those passages that sounds like something Jesus might say (knowing what we know about the plan of God), so I don't think it's that big a deal to me. Just curious if anyone knows why he included this in the article...



But I want to know, Why would He say that? 

They knew what they were doing!  They knew exactly what they were doing.  They might not have known WHY they were doing it, but they knew He was innocent and never did anything wrong and that they were only going along with the desires of those who were chanting for His death, and that they were total cowards. 

They knew what Barabas was!   And yeah, I've heard the lofty schpeel about how Barabas' freedom is prophetic / symbolic of Jesus setting the "captive" free by paying the penalty for sin.  But I call foul on that because at that point Jesus hadn't even died or even been hung on the cross.  Death is the penalty for sin -- not simply the shedding of blood.

If Jesus ever said "Father forgive them for they know NOT what they do..."  I'll eat my hat.  (What does that mean anyway:  "I'll eat my hat."  God I hope it's not too embarrassing. :D )



Hi Gina,
 I always assumed that the "them" was referring to the people performing the actual execution, the Roman soldiers. (i.e. "Forgive them, for they are only doing their job and they don't know who I am.")

Then after I came to BT I thought the request for forgiveness was for all of them (the crowd, the priests, Pilate, the soldiers), and "they know not what they do" referred to their lack of free will. In other words, "Father, forgive them, for they are the ones chosen to do this, that the prophecies might be fulfilled, and our mission may be accomplished." Just like Pharaoh and Nebuchadrezzar and the King of Assyria were used to bring glory to God (and were completely oblivious to that fact), the people involved in Christ's crucifixion were simply the ones chosen to do it--because someone had to. Thus, I believed that "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" was God accepting ultimate responsibility for our sins, since we are made too weak to resist.

Now that I've read that it's a spurious passage, I'm not sure what to think about it.  :o
But I agree with you, it seems reasonable that Jesus at least said "Father, forgive them." (Or it is something he WOULD say.)
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Gina

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2012, 01:18:12 PM »

Yes, Extol, that's precisely what I thought--everything you said about Him forgiving those nailing him to the cross, and then later after coming to B-T realizing He was talking about everyone involved.  (Santgem, thank you for pulling out that excerpt from Ray's Judas paper!)

I think the one scripture that supports Him saying that is one that I've seen Deborah (Arcturus) and others post before that I posted originally:

Hebrews 12:24 says:  "...and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel."

Instead of His blood crying out for vengeance, it speaks a better word:  "Father forgive them for they know not  what they do."

These verses wanted to stump me too:

Matt 23:7 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

But this is interesting:  Jesus' blood is not incorporated into those that they killed, only the blood of Abel to Zacharias.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Much like Joseph's brothers did when Joseph saved them out of their famine after he rose to power--after they threw him in that pit and left him for dead.  They threw their arms around him and wept -- so happy to see Joseph, who they didn't even recognize!  And for that matter couldn't have known he would be their savior, because just like the pharisees who were blinded to what Jesus was there for, so were Joseph's brothers.  It had to happen that way.

One thing is for sure, forgiveness alone cannot get the sin out of the sinner (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7047.0); and for that we need God's righteous judgment and that includes the kindness of God which leads to repentance: 


"Forgive them."  In God's heart and mind, we are already forgiven:

 "God Who quickens the dead, and calls those things which are not as though they were" (Rom . 4:17).

The forgiveness of the whole world is not as yet a fact, BUT IT WILL BE.  When?

"WHEN Thy Judgments are in the earth, [then] the inhabitants of THE WHOLE WORLD will learn righteousness" (Isaiah 26:9).


-from the Judas paper.

That makes sense to me.  I hope it helps a little.

God bless you, Extol! Great discussion. :)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 12:39:34 AM by Gina »
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Joel

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2012, 11:32:01 PM »

I didn't see Acts 3:17 in the spurious passages, where Peter is speaking about the Crucifixion.

Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.

Paul speaking to the Corinthians concerning the plan of God, in 1st Corinthians 2:8, also not listed as spurious.

1st Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Joel
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Gina

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2012, 04:22:17 AM »

I didn't see Acts 3:17 in the spurious passages, where Peter is speaking about the Crucifixion.

Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.

Paul speaking to the Corinthians concerning the plan of God, in 1st Corinthians 2:8, also not listed as spurious.

1st Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Joel

Right.  I'm seeing it now.  If they had known, they wouldn't have had the heart to crucify Him.  God had to blind them to the Truth to believe a lie so that they would feel enough anger towards Him and feel like they had the perfect excuse to do what they did.  God hardened them like he hardened Pharaoh against Moses; otherwise, they would have gone all soft and had pity on Jesus and would have been totally unwilling to sacrifice Him.  And we'd all be out of a Savior.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 04:38:17 AM by Gina »
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Gina

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Re: Spurious Passage Revisited
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2012, 04:35:55 AM »

I don't know if I should feel sorry for the Pharisees.  I mean, if they didn't know what they were doing then they deserve the fewer lashes, right? 

Luke 12:48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.

Hmmm...  Stymied again.

I'm not exaggerating when I say I thoroughly enjoy studying the bible.  I hate being bored, and I am never, ever bored when I'm studying the bible -- even if I'm stumped because now I trust that the answer is there because God's word doesn't contradict.  Thank you, Ray!  (And all who loved him and made it possible for him to teach someone like me!)

Ray said in an email:  We will also be saved from: pain, disease, heartache, fear, weariness, boredom, hatred, laziness, immorality, stupidity, vanity, inferiority, weakness, addiction, 

http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm

I told a forum member that it makes me very glad to know (to truly believe) that God doesn't want me to be  bored anymore than I want to be bored.   Ah!  What an awesome God!
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 04:41:46 AM by Gina »
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