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Author Topic: Miracle vs. Magic  (Read 6097 times)

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Kevin

  • Guest
Miracle vs. Magic
« on: March 21, 2006, 11:07:34 PM »

Joe I do believe you are correct.
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Steve Crook

  • Guest
Miracle vs. Magic
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2006, 12:00:02 AM »

Joe is definitely correct.

To Shoeman: most posters here, that truly seek Christ's face know there is nothing that is luck or chance, NOTHING. They don't exist because nothing is outside of God's Will and plan, NOTHING.

Steve Crook
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jerry cabral

  • Guest
Words
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2006, 12:13:39 AM »

With all these different words and meaning Im starting to understant the meaning of the Tower of Babel.  Praise God.
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rvhill

  • Guest
Re: Miracle vs. Magic
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2006, 01:53:16 AM »

Quote from: Shoeman
I get real tired of people telling me magic doesn't exist when they believe in God. So I ask:

What makes Miracle miracle and is it different then Magic? whats the true difference here? Are Miracles concordant with Nature or by their very definition do they go against all chances to things beyond normal nature?

You hear people all the time talking about how things are miracles because they had slim chances, but are they really miracles? Or are they just slim chances turning out? Where is the line drawn between divine interference and regular old chance and luck?

And is God a magical being? Does he classify as one?


I don't believe that God violate Natural law. It is his system, he made it. He can do anything he want with out braking his system.

Is it possible to stop the sun(earth) from moving?  What does Joshua 10:13 mean it is a good question we know now that the earth move around the sun. so does this mean that God stopped the earth and the moon? Maybe , or maybe he just made it seem to those on that field that it did.  Who knows the answer? Only God know.
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broken

  • Guest
Re: Miracle vs. Magic
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2006, 02:35:26 AM »

Quote from: Shoeman
I get real tired of people telling me magic doesn't exist when they believe in God. So I ask:

What makes Miracle miracle and is it different then Magic? whats the true difference here? Are Miracles concordant with Nature or by their very definition do they go against all chances to things beyond normal nature?

You hear people all the time talking about how things are miracles because they had slim chances, but are they really miracles? Or are they just slim chances turning out? Where is the line drawn between divine interference and regular old chance and luck?

And is God a magical being? Does he classify as one?


There are two primary differences between miracles and magic.

1. The power by which the action was wrought, and
2. The one to which the action is attributed and therefore the one glorified by the action.

If one were to undergo an indepth study of miracles in the NT, one would find that miracles were performed for one purpose: for the spread of the gospel and the glorification of Christ.  The book of John evidences that Jesus performed "signs" (semeion) and that those signs and his other "works" (ergon) testify to his identity.  

In the book of Acts, the Apostles perform miracles in order that they may point to Christ and thereby spread the good news of his salvation.  Peter refuses praise for miracles performed in his presence.  What is ironic is that people were praising Peter for the healing of a man whom was only touched be Peter's shadow.  Certainly, the fact that it was Peter's shadow had nothing to do with the power by which the lame man was healed.  Rather, God chose to perform that miracle in his timing so that Peter and the other Apostles could spread the gospel of Christ in that place.

Miracles are always wrought by the power of God and by him alone.  No man can take credit for any true miracle.  On the other hand, magic, by definition, is the subjection of some power (natural or supernatural) to perform acts.  Therefore, the subject and glorification of magic is always man rather than God.

As to the comment that God would not violate natural law, I would have to ask if the person making such an assertion really finds God to be that impotent?  If God created the natural order, then he must be outside of it and therefore capable of performing actions that break the order he set in place.  Miracles are things that do not[/i] happen naturally, not just that they may not or there is a high probability against them occurring; they, by nature will never occur naturally.

That's what I've got for now.

Brandon
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Andrew

  • Guest
Miracle vs. Magic
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2006, 03:33:53 AM »

I agree with Brandon on this.

To me, Acts 8 (when it talks about a man called Simon) makes a distinct difference in the "magic"(CLV)(the KLV says sorcery) he was performing and the miracles that Christ was doing through Phillip.

I hope this helps.

May the Lord Bless You and Keep You.
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Falconn003

  • Guest
Miracle vs. Magic
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2006, 04:13:37 AM »

magic tries to invoke the supernatural.

miracles are supernatural in origin or an act of God with no invoking.

FACT is, there is yet to be any man to invoke God to do anything or invoke the supernatural for that matter.

entertainment v.s. spirituality.........i will go with the spirit on this one.


A very strange twist to the straw men concept.


Rodger
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shibboleth

  • Guest
Miracle vs. Magic
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2006, 10:14:42 PM »

Magic is simply a trick. The magician uses gimmicks and ploys, that he sets up, to fool people into believing something impossible has happened.
A miracle uses no such gimmicks and ploys. When Jesus turned water into wine, He had nothing but himself to do it. When He healed a blind man, the little girl sick, the man at the well and the epileptic, it was spontaneous. These healed people were known in their communities, and their friends and neighbors could vouch for the truth of their healings.

The so-called faith healers today do no such thing. Everything is staged and controlled. The faith healers have actually convinced people who could walk to run around the stage pretending to be healed. Peter Popoff had a hearing aid in his ear that his wife would talk into from another area. She told him peoples illnesses. These people had filled out cards before the show stating their illnesses. Did you know that some faith healers require you to have a ticket to come to their show?
Sure doesn't sound like something Jesus would do.
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Sorin

  • Guest
Miracle vs. Magic
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2006, 10:47:00 PM »

Quote from: shibboleth
Magic is simply a trick. The magician uses gimmicks and ploys, that he sets up, to fool people into believing something impossible has happened.
A miracle uses no such gimmicks and ploys. When Jesus turned water into wine, He had nothing but himself to do it. When He healed a blind man, the little girl sick, the man at the well and the epileptic, it was spontaneous. These healed people were known in their communities, and their friends and neighbors could vouch for the truth of their healings.

The so-called faith healers today do no such thing. Everything is staged and controlled. The faith healers have actually convinced people who could walk to run around the stage pretending to be healed. Peter Popoff had a hearing aid in his ear that his wife would talk into from another area. She told him peoples illnesses. These people had filled out cards before the show stating their illnesses. Did you know that some faith healers require you to have a ticket to come to their show?
Sure doesn't sound like something Jesus would do.




Christianity makes me sick!! did you know they are selling "miracle-water vials" now? yeah, just drink it ( after you pay $50.00 for it or something) and yeah, all your sickness and disease will heal.

'Tis sad but true.  


That's like the " psychic friends network ", they know everything except the winning lottery numbers. :lol:
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shibboleth

  • Guest
Miracle vs. Magic
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2006, 12:31:38 AM »

You forgot about the prayer cloths they give away free of charge. Of course, they send you letters begging for money and God will bless you if you send them a gift. All these free gifts always seem to have a price attached. Even the radio preachers beg for money. They say if you don't support us, we'll be off the air soon. It never seems as if any of them go off the air though. I wonder what would happen if they did what they want everyone else to do and tithe to another ministry, or just not beg for a few months. If they were really from God, they would just not tell anyone they need money, and let God get it to them. HA! Fat chance of that ever happening. The Christian religion is one of the biggest con games I have ever seen. Noone cons better than Christians.
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rvhill

  • Guest
Miracle vs. Magic
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2006, 01:17:19 AM »

Quote from: shibboleth
Magic is simply a trick. The magician uses gimmicks and ploys, that he sets up, to fool people into believing something impossible has happened.
A miracle uses no such gimmicks and ploys. When Jesus turned water into wine, He had nothing but himself to do it. When He healed a blind man, the little girl sick, the man at the well and the epileptic, it was spontaneous. These healed people were known in their communities, and their friends and neighbors could vouch for the truth of their healings.

The so-called faith healers today do no such thing. Everything is staged and controlled. The faith healers have actually convinced people who could walk to run around the stage pretending to be healed. Peter Popoff had a hearing aid in his ear that his wife would talk into from another area. She told him peoples illnesses. These people had filled out cards before the show stating their illnesses. Did you know that some faith healers require you to have a ticket to come to their show?
Sure doesn't sound like something Jesus would do.
\\

I notice a big difference between faith healers to day and Jesus. Jesus always said if you have faith you can heal. The faith healers to day say if you have faith you will be healed. Do they even see the heresy they speak of?
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Chris R

  • Guest
hello,
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2006, 09:16:22 AM »

What would you say these verses mean?

Mat 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Mar 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

Mar 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luk 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Luk 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

And of the faith of the soldier?

And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,   And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.    And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.    The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.    For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].  When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.   And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.  But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.   And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, [so] be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour  [Mat 8:6-13]


Chris R
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rvhill

  • Guest
Re: hello,
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2006, 04:09:46 PM »

Quote from: Chris R
What would you say these verses mean?

Mat 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Mar 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

Mar 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luk 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Luk 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

And of the faith of the soldier?

And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,   And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.    And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.    The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.    For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].  When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.   And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.  But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.   And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, [so] be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour  [Mat 8:6-13]


Chris R

Jesus spoke after the fact. The faith healer are speaking before fact. Jesus healed people using his own faith, the faith healers are claiming to heal people using the person, they are trying to heal, own faith.
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ciy

  • Guest
Miracle vs. Magic
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2006, 04:42:57 PM »

It is amazing how easy it is to get into confusion.  

Jesus healed people by their faith.  That is what the verses say.

By what miracle power did Moses staff turn to a snake?
By what miracle power did the Egyptian's staffs turn to snakes?

Keeping it simple is powerful.

CIY
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