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Author Topic: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)  (Read 3537 times)

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Gina

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Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« on: July 11, 2012, 12:36:08 AM »

But seriously folks. 

I hope this isn't too much to ask, but would someone please help me make sense of this one little word "sold" in this verse:

Romans 7:14 KJV
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Some versions say "sold as a slave to sin," or "sold into bondage to sin." 

How is Paul using the word "sold"?  It's obvious it's not that we're literally "sold" into bondage to sin.   Maybe he meant it like, we're sold on the deception and lies.  or. something. like. that.

:)

Thanks everybody.
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indianabob

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2012, 12:58:54 AM »

Gina,

I think it means that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to Lord Jesus.
bob
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newgene87

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2012, 01:10:35 AM »

I'll take a stab at it. Well, to be "sold under" someone or something implies slavery. Learning about slavery during the time of the Roman Empire; slaves were sold all the time. Most times Sold "naked" :-[, just so the buyer would know what they were getting. Once "bought", they were "under" the direct "influence" and/or "power" of them. Now, Wisdom of the MYTH of Free Will is presented here, because as a slave of something, yea, you have the right to make a choice; but in that mindset, you are UNDER DIRECT INFLUENCE of your owner. So with Paul saying, "... I am carnal, sold under sin", He is implying, being carnal, we are under direct influence to sin. Paul gives us examples of Sin being impersonated

"But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence..." Rom 7:8 - Paul is showing us, sin finds OCCASION by the commandment to WORK in us to do the opposite of what we should do. i guess just the way it is. even since Cain... " if thou doest not well, sin (actually sin-offering) lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire" (Gen 4:7). Sin works in us.

And James 1:15 sheds some light too - "each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed. Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin: and the sin, when it is fullgrown (fully matured, fully developed) bringeth forth death."

Jesus said, "The flesh is weak..." and sin dwells in the flesh (Rom 7:17). and Paul even speaks of being "Servants to sin" --- "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death (Rom 6:16)

So my 2 cents. hopefully that helps some. And i believe you're pulling our legs. YOU KNOW GINA
i'll leave with this

"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 17-18)

That's why it's SO important to, "be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, Will of God." Rom 12:2

Eugene
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indianabob

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2012, 01:14:05 AM »

1Co 6:19  What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20  For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
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Gina

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2012, 01:45:41 AM »

You're funny Eugene! Tellin it like itis.  I like it.  haha  I'm being totally serious , I promise.  I can definitely see how you'd think that I'm not, though.  [Insert image of innocent little girl with halo above her head here :) ]  I'll try to tone it down.

Very good replies.  But did I miss it?  Who sold us into sin?  Obviously we were ultimately (in the absolute sense) sold by God into sin.  (For God hath concluded them all in unbelief [disobedience], that he might have mercy upon all. Rom 11:32) 

Maybe I'm making too much of it.  ::)

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Gina

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2012, 02:04:55 AM »

p.s.. And you're so right Eugene--the MYTH of free will is totally destroyed by that one verse in Romans alone.  Ray reminds us that we are bound by the law of sin and death--it's a law (not unlike the law of gravity).  We're forcibly held under it by our own lusts.  I see what you're saying.  And yet we are  freed from the law of sin and death by Christ -- by the renewing of the mind.  It's so much workkkk.
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newgene87

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2012, 02:52:52 AM »

Very good replies.  But did I miss it?  Who sold us into sin?  Obviously we were ultimately (in the absolute sense) sold by God into sin.  (For God hath concluded them all in unbelief [disobedience], that he might have mercy upon all. Rom 11:32) 

Maybe I'm making too much of it.  ::)

Maybe Jesus can help us: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh.." (John 3:6). That's why he adds, "Marvel not that i said, you MUST be born again". So seeing that, we are born of the flesh, born fleshly, born into sin OR "Carnal (fleshly) SOLD under sin" - under it's influence, we must renew our minds. and not only are we "born" of the flesh or "sold" under sin; paul still simply says, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey..." (Rom 6:16)''

soooooo "who shall deliver me from THIS body of this death, I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord... "Rom 7:25

Eugene
and thanks Gina ;D ;D
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Kenneth Clark

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2012, 02:56:17 AM »

maybe we are sold from the beginning...adam

that dang woman eve bought the fruit and sold it to adam

i think gina might get a kick out of this...but seriously
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 03:02:12 AM by Kenneth Clark »
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Gina

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2012, 03:04:17 AM »

It's still a lot of work, Eugene.  I mean, we have to wrestle -- the struggle sometimes is so tough that you always need to be on guard.  Always.  Thank God we have an Advocate, the Comforter, a Friend.  I think I must be spoiled sometimes.  I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining.  It's just that one thought spun another.  The struggle of the flesh.  It's unrelenting.  Still, I'd rather have this struggle than car trouble lol -which gives way to money struggles.  That must be it.  I'm totally spoiled.  God is just so good to me. I'm not exaggerating. 

Now I really sound like I'm bipolar.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 03:31:53 AM by Gina »
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Kenneth Clark

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2012, 03:13:13 AM »

in response to my above post...

maybe the fruit wasnt a fruit?

i speak simply

Kenneth
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 03:18:29 AM by Kenneth Clark »
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Gina

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 03:28:27 AM »

maybe we are sold from the beginning...adam

that dang woman eve bought the fruit and sold it to adam

i think gina might get a kick out of this...but seriously

Okay that was seriously funny. 8)  I suppose it could be said Eve bought the lie and Adam bought the farm.  And we inherited it.  Oh happy day!   ;D

Seriously though, God's so cool.  I mean, He apologies for nothing.  My mind keeps going back to this for comfort and strength:


1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—

4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

5 On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses.

6 For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me.

7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!

8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.

9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.   [ I think I just realized what Paul means by this for the first time in my entire life. ]

10  Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.


That thing that Paul saw was so wonderful that he was willing to be thrown in prison and shipwrecked and all of that.  He said, we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing;

And he called all of that "light" and "momentary" tribulation and not at all to be compared to what God has waiting for us.  What did he see?!  You can't make this stuff up!  Atheists say, Well, the bible was written by men under the influence of psychedelic mushrooms.  I'm like, um... I think....Not?

I confess I've been tempted to want to believe that someone made it all up to control us but when you search the scripture and test them, that's when you  just know.

.....What did that man see?!  One will never know in this lifetime perhaps, or will one?

Oh well.  Thanks for humoring me folks.  Honestly, I didn't feel like doing the dishes or hanging up my clothes.  The distraction's been good -- a very good distraction.

:)

No, I knew what you meant, Kenneth -- I agree with you.
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Arion

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2012, 09:05:48 AM »


Romans 7:14 KJV
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


How is Paul using the word "sold"?


Well, we need to remember that Paul isn't using the word 'sold' as he never spoke English.  The words in the Greek are πιπράσκω, πράω or pipraskō  praō and Strong's explains it thusly; 

The first is a reduplicated and prolonged form of the second (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses); contracted from περάω peraō (to traverse; from the base of G4008); to traffic (by travelling), that is, dispose of as merchandise or into slavery (literally or figuratively): - sell.

Thayer expounds on those words a little bit more;

Thayer Definition:
1) to sell
1a) of price, one into slavery
1b) of the master to whom one is sold as a slave
2) metaphorically
2a) sold under sin, entirely under the control of the love of sinning
2b) of one bribed to give himself up wholly to another’s will
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a reduplicated and prolonged form of prao, (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses), contracted from perao (to traverse, from the base of G4008)
Citing in TDNT: 6:160, 846

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Kat

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 10:56:51 AM »


Hi Gina,

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

I think that the key in that verse is the first part of that statement, "I am carnal, sold under sin." What does it mean to be carnal/flesh/sold under sin?  "Death."

Rom 7:5  For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

So as flesh/carnal human being, we are sold/captive to sin and death.

Rom 7:13  Has then what is good (the law) become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

Then Paul goes on to say there is no good in him and he can't do good even when he wants to, because he is flesh and carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
v. 19  For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

So we as carnal human being (which we all are) and held captive to sin and helpless, with only the certainty of death. We only have one hope... Jesus Christ!

Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
v. 25  I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
   
mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Gina

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2012, 12:49:43 PM »

Thanks Kat.  I guess I'm still stuck on that word "sold" - you know how Ray's always saying to pay attention to all the words.  So that word sold caught my attention--so many times I just read right over it.  But now it's like, why is that word there?   Carnality does equal death.  But sold and carnal are two different things.  Why not just say "I'm carnal - captured into sin?"

It makes me think of how God caused Joseph's family to flee the famine and then before they knew it they were all slaves in Egypt.   

Maybe I'm over-thinking this.

Anyway, you're so kind to respond.  Thank you. :)
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Gina

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2012, 01:17:10 PM »

Arion, thanks -- I missed your post.  Sorry.  It's starting to make a lot more sense now.


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Kat

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2012, 01:19:24 PM »


Hi Gina,

Well we do have to realize this is a translation and "sold" may not have been the actual word Paul used. Here is how Concordant has it.

Rom 7:14 For we are aware that the law is spiritual, yet I am fleshly, having been disposed of under Sin. (CLV)

It is the spirit behind the words, not the words themself. Anyway that was probably just another way that Paul was trying to get his point across that some people may have understood.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
 
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Gina

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2012, 01:58:57 PM »

Right.  That word disposed makes a lot of sense.  We have "artwork" throughout our office suite of contracts of indentured servants from back in the 1900's.  These people couldn't support themselves so they basically sold themselves to someone else and became their servants for life.  It's a stark reminder of how weak to sin we are.
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longhorn

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2012, 03:41:20 PM »

We are all at some point carnal or " Spritually Weak or Poor " and sold under sin.  Leviticus 25:25 comes to mind, " If one of your brethren becomes poor, and has sold some of his posession, and if, his REDEEMING ( Christ our redeemer) relative comes to redeem it, he may redeem what his brother sold.  We know Esau sold his birthright to Jacob.  Paul after receiving revelation knew very well he had been sold under sin, but he also knew his redeemer had it covered.
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newgene87

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2012, 07:46:16 PM »

It's still a lot of work, Eugene.  I mean, we have to wrestle -- the struggle sometimes is so tough that you always need to be on guard.  Always....  The struggle of the flesh.  It's unrelenting....

Now I really sound like I'm bipolar.

you did  ;D ;D ;D ;)

but it is a struggle. but Paul doesnt leave us hanging with sin and death and that's it. He says, "...where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom 5:20-21)

and i will never forget the first audio i heard of Ray about Repentance. so in His words...
"Anyway, I thought that was about the best you could do.  Boy, I was so thankful for one thing though. GRACE! Boy was I glad that this Bible talked about grace, because there was nobody who needed grace more than me!...I thought true spiritual conversion did not even exist and that's what Grace did. You did the best you could and where you didn’t do very good, it (grace) just filled in the gaps. That was about as spiritual as my mind would go for a long time. 

But God was working with me. I didn’t know it, I just thought I’m drifting through life. But God was working with me, for me, sometimes against me (which was also for me). [End Quote]

Ray put that so great. Repentance plays alot in us COMING out of being "sold under sin". For we are carnal. born of the flesh; naturally we're born into slavery. Just as if a child was born while his parents were slaves; HES a slave by right of the owner. We're all under the influence of sin. but thanks to grace.

Eugene
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Joel

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Re: Controversial topic (Enter at your own risk)
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2012, 12:47:01 AM »

We were owned by sin in the world, the flesh, and the devil. But we have been bought.
1st Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Joel
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