marriage woes "divorce"

[cjwood]

If the unbelieving spouse desires to leave, let them leave...

[indianabob]

Reasonable advice CJ,

Just be sure that we are not the ones opening the door for them and pushing them away and out.

Coll 3:12-14

...12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity....

[Jeff]

I don't know if this has been answered somewhere - I searched for it but didn't find anything.

For those of us who have come out of the church - where do we get married?

[John from Kentucky]

I don't know if this has been answered somewhere - I searched for it but didn't find anything.

For those of us who have come out of the church - where do we get married?

Jeff,

The answer is anywhere you want.

The Elect under Jesus' New Covenant don't have a lot of rules of do's and do not's.

The Spirit of God leads us in our way and in all Truth.

If you have the nine fruits of the Spirit of God within you, as listed in Galatians 5:22-23, then there is no need for laws and rules.

John

[Jeff]

>>>If you have the nine fruits of the Spirit of God within you, as listed in Galatians 5:22-23, then there is no need for laws and rules.

Hi John,

That makes sense to me, and maybe I just don't fully understand yet, but I was reading the transcript from a Bible-study Ray gave regarding marriage/matrimony, and he stated that while there is a Spiritual aspect (Christ / the church) there's also a very physical part of "matrimony".  He was responding to an email  in which someone said "We love each other and don't need to be married..." and of course that's not true, but marriage involves having a physical ceremony.

Ok, so given that, I realize that we could be on a beach somewhere, and as long as we have the proper legal documents, and for the ceremony - have witnesses present (friends celebrating with us), but I'm confused as to what would actually happen.

Without someone (in a former life - a pastor) officiating, it seems as though "matrimony" is actually just a matter of having the legal document and having a (Scriptural) celebration.

However, someone needs to sign the document, be it a judge, or a pastor, or a notary?!

I can't put my finger on what I'm confused about, but it seems like I'm missing something.

Maybe the ingredients are:

1. God's blessing
2. Two people who enter into a covenant
3. Legal documents
4. A celebration
5. A judge to sign the legal documents

Does that sound right?

[John from Kentucky]

Jeff,

Someone with God's Spirit will submit to the legal authorities wherever they live.

In the United States, each of the 50 States have their legal rules that constitute marriage.  Someone with God's Spirit will follow whatever the legal rules are to form a legal marriage.

If you live on the island of Tahiti, then we must follow the legal marriage rules there.

A captain on a ship can legally marry someone.

I do not know of any organized society that is without marriage laws and rules.

God's Spirit will direct that we follow the laws where we live because all authority comes from God.  All power ultimately leads back to God.

The Scriptures teach that only the marriage bed is undefiled.  So God has made a way to be legally married wherever one lives.

John

[Jeff]

Thanks John.  Makes sense.  Not sure why this all of a sudden occurred to me today (I'm not getting married) but it got lodged in my brain.

Jeff

[lurquer]

Ha!  Jeff, I've asked the very same questions as you.  Here are 7 pages of jibberish that may give you insight.  Or not...your mileage may vary. 

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,16040.0.html

[Jeff]

Thanks Neo,

I think my understanding (relevant to my quandary) is rooted in what Ray said about matrimony (as opposed to marriage) which is that matrimony does not rely on love, sex, happiness, etc.  a marriage certainly hopes to have all of those things and much more in order to be a good marriage, but the aspect of "marrying" is different in that there are rules, and customs that we're commanded to observe as Ray points out in his paper.

In this respect my mind has been rooted deeply in tradition, and I struggled to imagine what the actual physical requirements are.  Even though we aren't under the Law - customs and legalities still have a place in our lives because we are "in" the world and we're to be obedient to those God has put in power.

I think the only hitch in my thinking was "well, if there's no pastor, then what are we to do?" and it took some thought to sort this out.

It's probably not a big issue, but I appreciate the insight.  It helped me a great deal.

[lurquer]

I hear you, Jeff.

Even so, JFK said, "God has made a way to be legally married wherever one lives."  I find this to be an interesting statement, seeing as how the Supreme Law of the Land here in the US just declared that women can "legally" marry women, and men, men.  That IS now the Law here, like it or not.  Unlike John, I don't believe God 'made that way'.  Man did.  And it's absurd.

I think all of us here recognize the "marital relationship" to have been created and defined by God alone.  And it's a special relationship, unlike any other type of relationship between humans.  While you are right in saying marriage "does not rely on love, sex, happiness, etc."  (note, I bolded "rely"), those things still bear heavily on that special relationship.  So, what makes it "special"?

Simply put, it is the only God-sanctioned way for creating earthly families.  And only a man and a woman can procreate.  Thus, he created this special relationship primarily for the continuation of--not just the species (fornicators can procreate!)--but God's people.  The primary purpose of true marriage is "to raise up Godly seed". Others here will dispute that; I'm OK with that.  But that's what I see in the scriptures. And in that sense, it does rely on certain physical acts...which, in turn rely on eros, love.

What I think is quite interesting in light of today's re-interpretation of the word Marriage by the politicians and culture gods is this: 

As one 'spokesman' for the homosexual community at large has said, "Gay marriage is a lie"... because ..."the institution of marriage should not exist".  This Lesbian activist went on to say, "I don't see why they (her children) shouldn't have five parents legally. I don't see why we should choose two of those parents and make them a sanctioned couple."  Indeed, THIS is the agenda.  Note the careful choice of her term, "sanctioned couple". Devious...

I guess it just bothers me to keep hearing other believers say things like 'the love, sex, children thing isn't all that important'.  As if those aspects don't really matter in a proper definition of marriage...  Because the heathen sure think they do.  And it's not good enough that the State has "legalized" it..  They want it re-defined.  More accurately, they want it undefined.

I think we as believers should be cognizant of this agenda and more conscientious of our definitions. Just my $.02

[Dave in Tenn]

There are a lot of things that are 'legal' that followers of Christ ought not to engage in.

I'm not a catholic.  "Marrying" is not a sacrament.  I'm not a Mormon.  "Marrying" is not the beginning of a 'spiritual union' between man and wife.   It's (marrying) a symbol of "our" union with Christ.  In fact, when WE marry, we're simply married.  Since I've been old enough  to think for myself, that's what I've thought.

People marry all over the world without giving a thought to whether the God of the Bible "sanctions" it.  They did so before Christendom spread all of the world, and they do so where Christendom holds little or no sway.  Those people are married.  Period.  It is stating the obvious that 'marriage' to them is NOT a symbol of THEIR union with Christ, even if their marrying may be a symbol of OUR union with Christ. 

"WE" might even go so far as to say that "their marrying" is a very poor symbol of our union with Christ--maybe even not a symbol at all.  But when you start where I did, that's what it is, and all it is.  "We" have commandments concerning it, and WE should keep them.  If you don't, then immediately after that, you didn't.




Edited to change 'spiritual union with Christ' to 'Union with Christ'.  Spiritual is too loaded a word.  Marrying is a symbol of the upcoming Marriage Supper of the Lamb.   

 

   

[Kat]

Neo, why do you seems so disturbed to see this world embracing debauchery, hasn't it always. I think a lot of ignorant people actually believe that their 'acceptance' is their way of showing compassion on those they see just as 'different.' We cannot change the way this world is, and will continue to be for now and it's not up to us to do so.

1Co 3:19  For the wisdom of this world is nonsense in God's sight. For it is written, "He catches the wise with their own trickery," (ISV)

So what is the point in watching what this world is doing on the news programs, and paying close attention to the words they're saying? Certainly we don't agree with what is going on, and that is why we are suppose to "be separate" (2Co 6:17). I just don't see why you keep getting on a soapbox about all that here, going on about your disapproval and lecturing us?

1John 2:15  Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
v. 16  For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Jeff]

Aren't things exactly the way they're supposed to be?  I think I've pretty much given up at this point, worrying about this and that, because this is what God allows.  If gay marriage were something He simply wouldn't allow - then it wouldn't exist.  It has some purpose that I'm not clear about, but I'm unclear about most things.

I have this recurring thought about Jesus' return.  I keep thinking that God is waiting until all of His family is born before He finally deals with us.  Each day that passes without His return umpteenth souls are born into His family.  We don't know how many billions of people will be in our (His) family, but it makes sense to me that many billions would be at least the minimum - eternity is a big thing.  I forget the estimate of how many people have existed, but considering there are 7+ billion people on earth right now, and the earth is becoming slightly crowded, and maybe even unsustainable eventually, it seems like it would be nearly a ripe time to harvest.  Not that I know anything about anything, but I ponder. 

If God gives us medical advances that prolong our lives, it would make sense that it might be a way of bringing things to a close, barring a global catastrophe.  Only so many people can fit.  I see the struggle my daughter has after college trying to find a foothold in the world, and it's painful to watch, but I think it also reminds me that we're inching closer to redemption.  And then everyone will know at least as much and more than those of us here, now.

If Jesus' return were near, say, in our lifetime, we would see all of the horror we've created come to a screeching halt.  I think that's the only thought that really keeps me putting one foot in front of the other.  Well, that, and death.

So.....gay marriage, rape, murder, lying and deception, selfishness, hate, war-mongering - it all has a purpose in the formation of God's family.  We are given a gift to know what's right and wrong and God chooses who possess that understanding.  It's true, marveling that the world is, the way it is, is rather pointless, simply because it's exactly the way it should be.  But I also think we all have our limits as to how much we can take in and stay sane

Something that occurred to me lately, that probably everyone else thinks about, but is a new thought to me - is praying for Jesus to come.  I know it's God's timing that determines when that happens, but I've felt this sense of urgency to pray for it.  It might just be my own wishful thinking, but who knows?

I think I may have hijacked this thread.  Apologies...

[lilitalienboi16]

You are certainly not alone in your longing for the return of The King dear Jeff. We all yearn and groan in the spirit. I yearn everyday its almost unbearable. Everyday I live is a new opportunity to learn and draw closer to The Consuming Fire. Its also, painfully and sadly, a new day to sin. I think though, slowly but surely, we inch closer with each passing day by the mercy and grace of our Great God and Saviour. Just think, all the prophets before us didn't even know what their prophecies were all about and even the angels long to know and see what we have. We truly are blessed with a great hope that lies before us. One that the patriarchs would be very jealous of. The holy spirit abiding in us, transforming us into the very (spiritual) image of The Almighty God, what grander destiny could anyone ever ask for the human race? For God's race!

[octoberose]

Weirdly enough, I think Neo's last statements were sound and I don't disagree. Thank you Neo for your input.
   Let's think about this. Ray would say that the physical is first, then the spiritual. Well, with marriage you have a ceremony- the physical. Also, we have a physical relationship.  But the spiritual in marriage? What would we say that is? Christ and His Church? Or God and His creation of male and female, one made for the other?  Or the selflessness and the sacrifice it takes to join with someone in marriage ? Having children is one of the greatest acts of faith we do. It's amazing what we learn about God as Father when we become parents . And we are children in the eyes of God. In fact, we are told we Must be as little children to come to Him.  Just having a stream of thought here.
  If we cannot have  peaceful discourse about marriage knowing what we know and who we are, then who can?   

   

[lurquer]

So what is the point in watching what this world is doing on the news programs, and paying close attention to the words they're saying? Certainly we don't agree with what is going on, and that is why we are suppose to "be separate" (2Co 6:17). I just don't see why you keep getting on a soapbox about all that here, going on about your disapproval and lecturing us?

Kat, why do you think I'm "lecturing"?  My reason for quoting someone's worldly perspective was to point out what the State's (Legislature's... law-writers'...reality-makers') INTENTION was, ultimately...to re-define, and UN-DEFINE something sacred which definition Believers know and cannot deny.

Someone here posted that he believed God creates "the legal way to be married" through whatever arbitrary laws evil men who control the state declare.  Notwithstanding anything that may be written or described in Scripture... I disagreed.  I think it is important that we who believe on the Words of Christ do not allow others (heathen) to re-define His words--- and demand WE accept their "re-assignments".

What I'm saying is, we don't have to accept their definition. 

Or do we?  What say ye?  Is JFK right?

[Kat]

My reason for quoting someone's worldly perspective was to point out what the State's (Legislature's... law-writers'...reality-makers') INTENTION was, ultimately...to re-define, and UN-DEFINE something sacred which definition Believers know and cannot deny.

That is the way of this age, it has been through all the centuries and will be until Christ returns.

Someone here posted that he believed God creates "the legal way to be married" through whatever arbitrary laws evil men who control the state declare.  Notwithstanding anything that may be written or described in Scripture... I disagreed.  I think it is important that we who believe on the Words of Christ do not allow others (heathen) to re-define His words--- and demand WE accept their "re-assignments".

I do not believe 'all' men that "control the state" have been 'evil,' as you say, God puts who He wants there to serve HIS purpose. Of course "we who believe on the Words of Christ do not allow others (heathen) to re-define His words," why would you think we would? The inclusion of same sex marriage as legal and binding in the USA is repugnant, but it does not change what we would do to in a marriage ceremony. So yes as John said "Someone with God's Spirit will follow whatever the legal rules are to form a legal marriage."

What I'm saying is, we don't have to accept their definition.

Where homosexuality is concerned we do not accept their definition. Your main gripe seems to be with the homosexual influence on our society... okay that certainly is a perversion, Ray wrote a whole article on that http://bible-truths.com/homosex.htm and that seems to have always been a blight on society.
But we cannot change how this society is. We are not to get involved with the politics of this world no more than we have to, only doing what is legally required. We are to live a peaceful life... so what do you mean "do not allow... accept their "re-assignments"." Certainly we cannot protest and raise up in revolt, how are we not to accept what they decide? Remember what Paul said.

Titus 3:1  Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work,
v. 2  to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.

Christ's kingdom is NOT of this world now, and neither is ours if Christ dwells in us.

John 18:36  Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

Eph 2:4  But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
v. 5  even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
v. 6  and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

I edited my post above.  That's as 'boiled down' a version of Ray's talk/paper on "What is Marriage?" as I can manage.  If it isn't accurate to what he wrote/said, let me know publicly or privately and I will remove the post.

Neo, Jeff's question was about MARRYING and what HE could do.  He's not even planning one at present.  And I don't think he is even thinking about marrying a man.   If you can't answer Jeff's question, then please (for the ninth time now) don't take it any further as an invitation to bring the whole discussion of disagreement (or comments that stem from disagreement) with that talk/paper.

Here it is again, for a refresher:

"For those of us who have come out of the church - where do we get married?" 

[lurquer]

Kat, I AGREE with everything you said.  I realize we "cannot change how society is".  You keep suggesting I'm for some sort of Revolution or Uprising.  Let me assure you, I'm not.

Where homosexuality is concerned we do not accept their definition. Your main gripe seems to be with the homosexual influence on our society...

If you agree we don't have to accept their definitions, though, as I contend, then what do YOU mean by that? Probably the same thing I mean.  Give me the benefit of the doubt that I am not against you or anyone here.

Example:  I have a sister-in-law who imagines herself to be a Believer, yet is on her third 'marriage' after walking out on her second husband, and father of her children, because, as far as anyone can tell, she was 'bored' of him.  Conveniently, she'd found a new beau weeks after the 'divorce papers' were signed (again, more of man's laws dictating to Christians how they should interpret Christ's words). She married him within a month, and moved him into her house with her young daughters.   This is an open adulterous affair, not a "marriage" and I acknowledge it as such.  In other words, I don't "recognize" her marriage—even though it's "legal".  She's just another fornicator and adulterer, as is her "husband". No, I don't advocate stoning her. Something better—the New Testament way—it's called shunning. It starts by calling a spade a spade.  She says she's "married" now.  I say she is not. I retain the right of the proper definition.
 
To a Believer, then, marriage is what the Scripture says it is; nothing more and nothing less. Why do so many have so much confusion on this subject (myself included)? Is it because we've allowed  ourselves to be swayed by "learning the way of the heathen"?  Let us unlearn it then. It's an inward Revolution of the Mind, not an outward one.  And for the record, I despise "Revolts".  I'm for peaceful separation when and where necessary.  I'm for leaving others alone and being left alone.

Dave, I understand what Jeff's question was.  I also think his confusion is based on the above observation. I was just trying to help. 

Here it is again, for a refresher:

"For those of us who have come out of the church - where do we get married?" 

Here is my answer:  Wherever you want.  It's none of the State's (or anyone else's) business. That was my point in adding to this conversation.  WHO CARES what the unbelievers think about what or how WE are to marry. Their definitions simply do not apply to us in cases where the Bible is clear on a proper understanding of an institution such as "marriage".

If someone already gave him that answer, my apologies for repeating it.  And it wasn't my intention to take us back down the Rabbit Hole of the former Marriage Vow discussion. My thoughts were to add to that pile of meanderings—maybe just to give some clarity.  Guess I failed at that 

[Dave in Tenn]

I guess your sister-in-law will need a good lawyer and a good judge to untangle her marriage situation.

Some folks look at the world and think about how it ought to be.  Seems to me from my chair, that makes them tend to not want any association with it.  I prefer to look at the world as it is and think about what it is going to be.  That makes me want to live like it's going to be...get a 'head start', as it were.  Maybe even help lead the way.  Of course, I can't do either if I don't know "what it's going to be".