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Author Topic: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??  (Read 10820 times)

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2012, 04:21:53 PM »

Satan says "IN THE DAY you eat thereof..." Meaning, that day that they eat this fruit, upon that very day, they will be as GOD is.

Unfortunately for adam and eve, even after eating the fruit, they were NOTHING like God. They are / were becoming like God but they were FAR from "BEING AS GOD."


Okay: this thought jogged in my head when I wasn't even thinking about it. Isn't that thought "adding" a meaning to the Hebrew word for day, which is YOM??? And after listening to Ray give a very lengthy new SCRIPTURAL meaning to the word Yom - it's not a "day", or that very day: but time period, could be moment, could be season, or years. And you said NOTHING like God. God said they were becoming like God, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL IN THAT YOM. And which "yom" we're still in. For we know good and evil. So perhaps man would eat from the tree of life and live to the eons, he blocked it off - THIS EON. So the next eon is when we partake of that life: Aoinion Life. "Since it is APPOINTED for man to die" and "in Adam all die"

Psalms 82:6-7
I have said, Ye are gods (and scripture can't be broken);
and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men,
and fall like one of the princes.

So from Rays teaching on the Hebrew for day; we can't add a meaning to it. That's like saying on the 4th day, that very day, he created the sun. No, it's yom

Jus throwin that thought in, staying faithful to Rays teaching on yom. I just see the fact Satan said about theyre eyes opening and becoming as god, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL (he didn't say like god, being all powerful and all knowing) and God said it happened and will happen; the way he planned. . Since it was appointed for man to die, for the reason the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world -  So he blocked the tree of life which one would eat and live to the eons;

1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Now if I took those scriptures out of context, please show it to me and I'll repent of it. I just saw the use of the SAME Hebrew word for day, yom, and staying faithful to scripture is critical. Seeing that it's all a parable anyway

Eugene

Perhaps "NOTHING" was a bit of a strong word. I suppose, far off, from being "AS GOD" is perhaps more accurate. Even then, their knowledge of Good and evil, if it was even that at that very specific moment in time, was FAR OFF from God's knowledge of good and evil. So either way you look at it, they were not "As God" in that moment of time. That period of time, that day, that YOM. Whatever you would like to believe it to mean.

Wow. Excuse me, but I got that teaching from ray and yom is yom. And again, adding an assumption; "..was FAR OFF from God's knowledge of good and evil" - of course, scripture says, "my thoughts are not your thoughts, and my ways are not your ways". So man doesn't have knowledge of good and evil yet? .... in THAT yom?....arent we all in Adam?

So, when will man have the "knowledge" of good and evil? In the next eon? Or is the next eon for judgment of good and evil? Seriously seeking an scriptural understanding.

And I said "Aionion Life in my post. I know the teaching of eternal. That was in the tree of life "...put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and LIVE OLAM (to the age, Aoinion, and never to die)..." (Gen 3:22).

My dear friend,

Calm down, I was not attacking you in anyway. There is no need to get defensive. I was merely emphasizing the point that regardless of how long one considers YOM to be in time, the point is still the same. Adam and Eve's understanding of what good and evil was, after having eatin the tree of knowledge of good and evil, hardly equated to the knowledge that God has of these things. Furthermore, this would make satan's statement that IN THAT DAY, they would be as God, a lie.

It appears I have offended you and for that I apologize. It was not the intent. I believe perhaps a mis understanding of the point I was making has occurred.

Also, I'm not sure where you got "man's" knowledge of good and evil. I was referring to Adam and Eve's knowledge of good and evil, in that "YOM", that point in time. I also did not say they did not have any, but rather, what they did have, paled in comparison to what God has and thus, makes them far off from being like God in that sense.

It seems most of your reply is almost entirely nothing to do with what I posted. I suggest perhaps re-reading my post. I never mentioned mankind in that post anywhere, I also never attacked you, nor did I say they didn't have ANY knowledge but rather that it was far off from God's knowledge.

Not sure what else to say to you. Calm down? You're building your entirely reply on things that were not said and making an argument of it.

God bless,

Alex

« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 04:26:51 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

newgene87

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2012, 04:29:44 PM »

Spiritual thumbs up Brother ;D

It is "all good". Seriously, everything is fine ;). Cleared up in Love .

Eugene
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 04:39:09 PM by newgene87 »
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paulfisher

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2012, 08:51:52 AM »

Great thread. Bottom line?

Satan used some truth along with a lie to tempt Eve.

According to Ray and the Scriptures Adam and Eve did not have any knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the forbidden fruit.

They had a (one) commandment from God that they broke by eating the forbidden fruit and that was their first sin.

Eve's lusts caused her to break the one commandment and according to Ray, Adam probably did not want to lose Eve and so also partook. Adam, at least at that time, would have loved Eve more than God which makes sense to me.

Paul
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2012, 02:03:52 PM »

Is there a really difference between what Marques and Dave said?

Sorry, John.  I missed this the first go-round.  No, I don't think there is really any difference.  Marques would have to answer for himself.  We both tried to answer a theological question with a practical (that is to say Spiritual) answer.  It's asking too much for two people to have exactly the same thoughts. 

Eve had a knowledge of good and evil before she ate.  She had the commandment and she had her lusts.  These were in conflict.  That alone is 'a knowledge of good and evil'.  Isn't that the way both 'good' and 'evil' work?  "Out of the heart...whether good or evil"?

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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

santgem

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2012, 06:06:28 AM »

Quote
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html


SIN BEGINS IN THE HEART

Man’s mind is not the birthplace of sin. And certainly man’s will is not the originator of sin. God did NOT say: "O that there were such a WILL in them..." (Deut. 5:29). If we will just believe, our Lord tells us plainly where sin originates:

"And Jesus said, Are ye [all of you] also yet without understanding?

Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever enters in at the mouth goes into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth FROM THE HEART; and they defile the man.

For out of THE HEART proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man" (Matt. 15:16-20).

Need I remind any that all of the above thoughts and deeds are sin?

So what pray tell does all this stuff have to do with Mother Eve’s sin in the garden? A lot—everything. The Apostle John classifies all sins into just three categories under one heading.

LOVE NOT THE WORLD—THREE CATEGORIES OF SIN

"Love NOT the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father IS NOT IN HIM. For [for means ‘because’] ALL that is in the world,

the lust of the FLESH,

the lust of the EYES,

and the pride of LIFE,

is not of the Father, but is of the world.

And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides for ever" (I John 2:15-17).

Notice that "…ALL that is in the world…"—all the sins of the world, have their origin in one of these three categories of sin that proceeds "out of THE HEART." Not out of the "will" or out of the "mind," but "out of THE HEART." The "will" and the "mind" are subject to the "heart," and not the other way around. The heart is not subject to the will, neither is the heart subject to the mind, but rather both of these are subject to the birthplace of all human functions—the HEART!

Simply and unarguably, Jesus states as a fact, that all evil thoughts and sins proceed OUT OF THE HEART.

Now, with all that said, let’s prove once and for all that Mother Eve and Adam were (1) NOT spiritually perfect in any way shape or form, BEFORE they actually ate of the forbidden fruit, and (2) neither did they sin and then partake of the forbidden fruit through the operation of something called "free will."

"And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD… Gen. 3:6:

"…lust of the FLESH…" (I John 2:15)
 
and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES… Gen. 3:6:

"…lust of the EYES…" (I John 2:15)
 
and a tree to be DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE Gen. 3:6:

"…the PRIDE OF LIFE" (I John 2;15)

Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit.
ALL of Eve’s evil thoughts of pride, vanity, lust, greed, disobedience, and finally thievery proceeded NOT from Eve’s supposed "free will," but rather from out of her HEART. And the only reason these sins could come out of her heart is because THEY WERE ALREADY IN THERE FROM THE BEGINNING. BEFORE Eve actually ate of the forbidden fruit, she committed every category of sin in the world. And need I remind us that we were also, ALL IN ADAM, before he ate of the tree (I Cor. 15:22). Will we deny our own eyes and the Scriptures we have just read?

"CAUSE AND EFFECT"—THE FIRST EDICT OF THE UNIVERSE

Let me interject a few thoughts here before we go on. Science has never found an "effect" anywhere in the universe for which they believe there was not first a "cause." I mean, how could it be otherwise?

What is there anywhere, that can happen, come into existence, display an effect, for which there was absolutely NO CAUSE?

Why is it then that most of humanity believes that they can think thoughts that they themselves brought into existence WITHOUT ANY CAUSE? Why would anyone think such a thing? Well, for one thing, they are not usually, consciously aware of the cause. Therefore, they deceive themselves into believing that their thoughts HAD NO CAUSE!

But since when must the cause of an effect be visible or perceivable in order to be accepted? I can witness the tremendous effects and power of electricity, and yet I have never seen electricity. I see the effects and power of the wind, and yet I have never seen the wind. We can also see things and not feel them. I can see the sky, but I can’t feel the sky. We can also hear sounds, but we can’t see sounds. The rays of the sun burn our skin, but we can’t see the actual rays that burn us. We can smell things that we cannot see, hear, or feel. We can’t see taste.

Then why should it seem strange to us that we can have thoughts without seeing, feeling, hearing, or smelling the CAUSE of those thoughts. It is amazing just how deceiving this doctrine of free will is when we consider that most scientists accept free will as a fact, yet they would never in a million years accept anything else in the universe as coming into existence without a cause!

Psychiatrists and psychologists look for every conceivable CAUSE of mental diseases, personality disorders, and a plethora of behavioral dysfunctions associated with the thinking of the mentally challenged. Try to convince even one of them that these disorders have absolutely no cause whatsoever, and see how they will look at you with a cocked head. But then suggest to these same experts if indeed all of these malfunctioning thought patterns do have a cause, then just maybe all of our properly functioning and socially acceptable thoughts, ALSO HAVE CAUSES. And they will AGAIN look at you with a cocked head of incredulity! Does anyone see a CONTRADICTION in all this free will philosophy?

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO UN-RING A BELL

It has been wisely stated, that once a bell has been rung, it can never be UN-RUNG. And this axiom is also true for our thoughts and everything else in the universe that was the effect of some cause. Once we are CAUSED to have a particular thought, it is not even in the realm of possibility for that thought to never have occurred. IT HAD TO OCCUR. Once anything CAUSES something, the effect of that cause could never have been otherwise. The very fact that everything in the history of the universe and the history of the human race had a cause is proof positive that this same history could never have been different.

Whatever HAS HAPPENED, HAD TO HAPPEN. The CAUSES of all happenings, MADE all of the effects come into existence. Nothing that has a cause can ever be stopped, for if the cause could be stopped, the effect would have never happened, and we would not have the existence of any such cause to even be talking about in the first place. BUT ALL THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED, HAVE HAPPENED! This is not rocket science. No one can UN-RING a bell.

Now then, if ALL effects are the result of "something," namely a "cause," bringing about the effect, what brings about the "cause" OF the "effect?"

Thank God! I thought no one would ask. Answer? Laws! Laws cause effects. Laws cause thunderstorms. Laws cause life. Laws cause death. LAWS CAUSE EVERYTHING!

But let’s keep this thing going: Who or what causes "laws?" I can see I’ve got to get up pretty early in the morning to keep ahead of this group of readers—just fooling with you. Seriously, this is a deep question that deserves an answer, but the answer is not one that most want to hear. They prefer the superiority of man creating his own thoughts, actions, and theories a whole lot better. So what causes laws? Actually it is not a what, but a Who

GOD CAUSES LAWS

Maybe you are saying, "Well I knew that." Oh really? Then why do you still believe in UNCAUSED human free will? They are not compatible you know? God can’t be steering this creation in one direction while five and a half BILLION humans are steering it in another direction. Which direction WILL IT GO? If it goes in man’s direction, then God is not in control of its direction. And if it goes in God’s direction, THEN MAN HAS NO FREE WILL TO MAKE IT GO IN HIS DESIRED CONTRARY DIRECTION! Guess which one is the Truth? But, "Lord who has believed our report?"

"In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth." (Gen. 1:1).

Man can "create" nothing—not even a thought.

"Through faith we understand that the worlds [ages] were framed [prepared] by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear [are visible]" (Heb. 11:3).

Invisible things are nonetheless REAL.

Now for maybe the most profound and all-encompassing statements in all Scripture:

"In Whom [GOD] also we have obtained [‘obtained’ not ‘earned’] an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED [our ‘destiny’ was ‘pre’ arranged by God, not us] according to the PURPOSE OF HIM [not the free will, OF US!] Who WORKS ALL THINGS [EVERYthing] AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL [not OUR OWN WILL]" (Eph. 1:11).

BACK TO MOTHER EVE AGAIN

Was it Eve’s will from the beginning ("free" or otherwise), that she would eat the forbidden fruit? No, it wasn’t. Let’s read it:

"Now the serpent was more subtle [cunning] than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, has God said, Ye [you and your husband] shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

Eve was not yet deceived: she was not as yet caused to disobey God. She set the serpent straight by telling him that his statement wasn’t completely true. They could eat of all of the fruit in the garden EXCEPT ONE. Eve was okay with that commandment from God. Well why did she then eat of the forbidden fruit? WHAT CHANGED?

Did Eve’s "heart" change? No, she had the same heart she was created with.

Did Eve’s "mind" change? Yes it did.

Did Eve’s "will" change? Yes, of course it did.

Now for the "sixty-four thousand dollar question." WHAT changed Eve’s mind and will? Even though Eve had a deceitful heart, there was something else that CAUSED her to change or mind and her will regarding the forbidden fruit. The Apostle Paul plainly tells us what CAUSED Eve to change her mind and her will. Eve did not "freely" will to sin. Her choice to sin was not "free" from an external cause. IT WAS CAUSED, and when something is CAUSED to happen, it could not have been "free" to NOT HAPPEN. Am I going too fast for anyone?

"But I fear, lest by any means, AS the serpent BEGUILED [Gk: ‘DECEIVED’] Eve through HIS subtlety [craftiness]…" (II Cor. 11:3).

Where does anyone see one single word here to the effect that Eve deceived HERSELF, or caused HERSELF to sin, or "freely" willed HERSELF into a different frame of mind WITHOUT A CAUSE?

WHAT CAUSED EVE TO SIN WILLINGLY?

Did Eve herself think that she "freely" willed to sin WITHOUT A CAUSE?

"And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that you have done? And the woman said [Yes, just what did ‘the woman say?’ Did she say that she "freely willed" to commit this sin? Did she say it was her and all her and nothing but her that did this? Or did she say…], The SERPENT BEGUILED ME… [and BECAUSE the serpent beguiled or deceived her, we now have a CAUSE], and I did eat" (Gen. 3:13).
And what did God have to save about all this blame casting on Eve’s part? Did God say something like this:

"Oh really, Eve? Yah right, go ahead, try and blame it on THE SERPENT! No, Eve, you ‘FREELY’ willed by your own ‘FREE MORAL AGENCY’ which I gave to you and which is free from ALL CAUSALITY AND BLAME CASTING, to do this thing ON YOUR OWN."

Is that what God said? Let’s read it:

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, because YOU HAVE DONE THIS, you are cursed above all cattle…" (Verse 14).

There it is. God’s Own answer. But will we accept God’s answer? For most, probably not.

God plainly said that it was the serpent who "has done this." Eve said it was the serpent that deceived her and God Himself also conceded that it was the serpent that "HAS DONE THIS." That was the CAUSE, and that was the reason for the serpent’s punishment.

WHAT CAUSED ADAM TO SIN WILLINGLY?

How about Adam? Does he fair any better than his wife? Did Adam eat the forbidden fruit and sin by his OWN ‘FREE’ WILL? Or do the Scriptures tell us that he too was CAUSED to have his will do what he did?

"And the man said, THE WOMAN whom You gave to be with me, SHE GAVE ME OF THE TREE, and I did eat" (Ver. 12).

And again, did God say something like" "Oh sure, Adam, blame it on your WIFE! You know that you ‘freely’ without any outside cause whatsoever, decided on your own to eat the fruit." Is that what God intonated to Adam? Let’s read it:

"And unto Adam He said, Because [‘because’—here is the real CAUSE] YOU HAVE HEARKENED UNTO THE VOICE OF YOUR WIFE, and have eaten of the tree …" (Ver. 17).

Does anyone see here where God says, "Because you have hearkened unto the voice of our OWN ‘FREE’ WILL, and have eaten of the true…?" Well? No, before Adam "willed" (and NOT FREELY), but willed to eat of this fruit, his heart was influenced to do something that it already had all the potential in the world of doing. Namely, disobeying His God and Maker. And what was that? HIS WIFE’S VOICE. And at THAT point in the process, Adam began to "will" this act, and his mind formulated the actual physical action of doing the eating.

You see, Adam was willing to die for his new bride, just as Jesus was willing to die for His bride, the church.

God doesn’t even hint that Adam did what he did "freely." God Himself admits that the CAUSE was "the VOICE OF YOUR WIFE."

I have said and taught for decades now that God never FORCED anyone to sin or go against whatever their will is at the precise time that his will is changed by a cause. Men volunteer to sin. They don’t need to be "forced"—they are SINNING MACHINES! Most men (not all) can be made to sin at the drop of a photograph. (That is, if the photograph is that of a sexy young lady in high heels and a mini-skirt). He doesn’t need to be ‘FORCED’ to lust and sin over the young lady, even though it may not have been his conscious will TO LUST just prior to seeing the sexy photograph.

Who created man with such passions and desires? Dah! Who created Testosterone?

IT ALL STARTS WITH THE HEART

ALL have sinned because it takes SPIRITUAL POWER not to sin. And God did not give our first parents that kind of spiritual power. They were spiritually weak as water.

We read in Jer. 17:9:

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

We know from Scripture that God "…creates EVIL…" (Isa. 45:7), but did He also create man’s heart in a "desperately wicked" state? No, He did not. God did not FORCE upon man, at creation, a "desperately WICKED" heart. Let’s read this verse from the Jewish Publication Society,

"The heart is deceitful above all things, And it is EXCEEDING WEAK—who can know it."

God did not create man’s heart "desperately wicked" as the KJV suggest, but rather He did create the human heart, "exceeding WEAK."

The seat of emotions and desires is the HEART. And God made the heart "exceeding WEAK." Man did not sin because he "freely willed" to sin, but because his heart was so exceedingly WEAK. That is why it takes next to nothing to persuade the heart of man to DESIRE SIN.

Jesus Christ Himself taught us that EVIL THOUGHTS, MURDERS, BLASPHEMIES, ADULTERIES, etc., all start, begin, originate, proceed, out from THE HEART.

Once the heart senses a feeling or emotion, it begins to desire something. These very thoughts of desire emanate out from the heart, seeking fulfillment. At this point in the process the will is manifested. It now becomes the driving force within you to accomplish the thoughts and emotions of the heart. The will is not the original instigator in this chain of events; it is not even the second in line, but rather the third.

The will of man has no power until first his heart DESIRES,

Second these desires are formed into actual THOUGHTS,

Then at this third stage the will purposes to find fulfillment for all that is coming out of the heart.

The heart played a huge role in Adam’s decision to also partake of the forbidden fruit. In I Tim. 2:14 we read this:


"And Adam was NOT deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

Why did Adam sin if he was NOT deceived as his wife was? Again, the answer goes back to THE HEART.

Adam LOVED his wife dearly. He never wanted to be separated from her. But he knew that the wages of eating the forbidden tree was to be death. But did he fully comprehend all that death entailed? Probably not. But whatever the penalty would be or how it would be carried out, Adam knew that he did not want to be separated from his wife. Notice what He said to God:

"And the man said, The woman whom you gave to be WITH ME, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." (Gen. 3:12).

Isn’t that interesting. Adam did not say: "The woman whom you gave TO ME." Or, "The woman whom you gave FOR ME." But rather, "The woman whom you gave to be WITH ME." Adam reminded God that He created Eve to be ‘WITH’ him, not apart from him. And if Adam had obeyed God, whereas his wife did not, he feared being SEPARATED from Eve. And so he also ate of the fruit and sinned, not because he was deceived as Eve was, but because he loved her in his heart so much that he couldn’t bear the thought of not being "WITH" her.

And so, did Adam "freely" WITHOUT A CAUSE choose to eat the forbidden fruit? What nonsense. Adam had the BIGGEST REASON in the world that CAUSED him to sin and remain with his wife!

So if you are looking for "free" will in the Garden at the time of our first parents' creation, forget it, 'cause it ain’t there!



We have to believe the Scriptures!

Jhn 8:44   Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 

and for all your arguments.........

Blame it to the serpent beacause it is the cause!!!!!!! :) :) ;D

kidding aside;

There is no truth in him, Satan. I do believe that it is necessary for Adam and eve to know the good and evil, and that is what God planned!


« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 10:30:26 AM by santgem »
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paulfisher

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2012, 04:48:41 AM »

Great thread. Bottom line?

Satan lied along with telling some truth to tempt Eve. (Gen 3:4/5) As verse 22 verifies the truth.

According to the Scriptures Adam and Eve did NOT have any knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the forbidden fruit.

They had a (one) commandment from God that they broke by eating the forbidden fruit and that was their first sin.

Satan's beguiling along with Eve's lusts CAUSED her to break the one commandment and Adam loved his wife and was willing to die for her and so also partook.

Paul
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gregorydc

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2012, 05:00:54 AM »

Paul according to Rays teachings Adam and Eve did have knowledge. They had to partake of the forbidden fruit, that is how God is still making us from their sin in the beginning. Giving them more knowledge of both good and evil. As Ray would say you have to read ALL the words. Maybe someone will put up the link for you on this.
Greg
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santgem

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2012, 05:55:52 AM »

Quote
http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#suffer
Your theory that man would have been happy in the Garden for all eternity if he hadn't eaten of the forbidden fruit is nonsense. He didn't really know that ANYTHING in the Garden was good--he had never experienced EVIL! It's that simple and it's that profound. God is truly WISE!




If they know anything before, they would have a contrast between good and evil. Experiencing evil able them to distinguish between good and  bad.

 Adam and Eve may not be happy in their life in the garden if they would not experienced evil, there is no contrast between good and evil, it's so boring indeed! ;)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 08:34:52 AM by santgem »
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Kat

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2012, 11:45:52 AM »


One aspect I would like to bring up is that Adam and Eve from the beginning had access to the Tree of Life (the One who would become Jesus Christ). We understand that God talked with them and "walked" in the garden, so it seems they had been 'partaking' of the Tree of Life for a period of time since they were created, they were learning from Him. They were being taught by God Himself how to "Work" the ground... how else would they have learned this new way of life? So I think there was a time when they may have been protected or kept away from the rest of the world (before they partook of the tree of life), while they were learning what they needed to know.

So when the time came for them to move on into the experiences of good and evil (from the world around them) well it was then that Satan entered the picture to draw Eve and Adam with her to the tree of good and evil.

mercy, peace and peace
Kat

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Gina

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2012, 12:54:20 PM »

Quote
http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#suffer
Your theory that man would have been happy in the Garden for all eternity if he hadn't eaten of the forbidden fruit is nonsense. He didn't really know that ANYTHING in the Garden was good--he had never experienced EVIL! It's that simple and it's that profound. God is truly WISE!




If they know anything before, they would have a contrast between good and evil. Experiencing evil able them to distinguish between good and  bad.

 Adam and Eve may not be happy in their life in the garden if they would not experienced evil, there is no contrast between good and evil, it's so boring indeed! ;)


Exactly!  (I hate being bored.)  They wouldn't even be able to say things like, Wow, the Tree of Life is Awesome!  It's Perfect!

Without anything bad to compare it to they'd just be like,

Oh, yeah .... the Tree of Life - how about that.  Ho hum.  Welp, guess I'll get back to planting those yummy cukes in the "garden." 

Oh, look hon, we got a good crop again this year.

Oh Adam, look at those beautiful roses.  Yeah babe, they smell good.


And God would be like,

Me oh My, The scene is dull!!  Satan, you go down there....I need them to put a little more life in their dying.

;D

It's like this:  Christendom says that God doesn't want robots.  But what the freak do they think Adam and Eve would ultimately be if God never planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden?!  They'd seriously have no  choice whatsoever, see?  Hence, no free will! 

So in essence, Christendom likes the fact that God did not give man a fabled free will (to borrow from Ray). 

They just don't know it.  Yet....
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 09:06:53 AM by Gina »
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Rene

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2012, 01:11:19 PM »


They had a (one) commandment from God that they broke by eating the forbidden fruit and that was their first sin.



Here is an email reply from Ray that may help in our understanding of this matter:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3702.msg27912.html#msg27912

COMMENT:  Why DIDN'T Adam and Eve eat of the "tree of life" first? If they were "innocent" ['not experienced or worldly; naive'--American Heritage Dictionary], why would they choose to sin and eat the forbidden fruit. What was it about their nature that purposely chose sin over righteouness; disobedience over obedience; death over life?  What?  How can "innocence" CHOOSE EVIL?  Why didn't their "innocence" CHOOSE GOOD?  Ah, did you catch that?  Did you miss it?  What was it that Eve chose?  Did she choose EVIL or did she choose GOOD?  She chose BOTH AT THE SAME TIME!!  "Good AND evil" were both in THE SAME FRUIT!!  I don't believe there is a theologian on earth that understands this enigma!

    You are also wrong in suggesting that sin did not come into the garden until Eve actually ATE THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT.  Not true.  Let's read it if you haven't read my "lake of fire" series:  "And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD [lust of the flesh--this is SIN], and that it was pleasant to THE EYES [lust of the eyes--this is SIN], and a tree to be desired to MAKE ONE WISE [pride of life--this is SIN]....." (Gen. 3:6).  Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN IN THE ENTIRE WORLD  B-E-F-O-R-E  SHE EVER ATE OF THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT.  "For ALL that is in the world [A-L-L the sins of the world come under these three categories], THE lust of the flesh, AND THE lust of the eyes, AND THE pride of life, IS NOT OF THE fATHER, BUT IS OF THE WORLD" (I John 2:15).

    "For the creature [Adam and Eve and all their descendants] was MADE [by GOD] subject to VANITY [Margin: 'futility--failure'], not willingly, but by reason of Him [God] Who has subjected the same in HOPE" (Rom. 8:20).

    Your whole premise is unscriptural.

    God be with you,

    Ray
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2012, 03:49:06 PM »


Did you miss it?  What was it that Eve chose?  Did she choose EVIL or did she choose GOOD?  She chose BOTH AT THE SAME TIME!!  "Good AND evil" were both in THE SAME FRUIT!!  I don't believe there is a theologian on earth that understands this enigma!
L Ray Smith ~ courtesy Rene, previous post.

Did you miss it.... is the question.

How can anyone NOT miss it, being that we are all subject to vainity, and first the natural then the spiritual. So we HAVE to miss it ~ No one can not NOT miss it, for we have all sinned. Eve chose, she chose BOTH, good AND evil that are BOTH in the same fruit.

So, the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2012, 05:04:16 PM »


They had a (one) commandment from God that they broke by eating the forbidden fruit and that was their first sin.



Here is an email reply from Ray that may help in our understanding of this matter:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3702.msg27912.html#msg27912

COMMENT:  Why DIDN'T Adam and Eve eat of the "tree of life" first? If they were "innocent" ['not experienced or worldly; naive'--American Heritage Dictionary], why would they choose to sin and eat the forbidden fruit. What was it about their nature that purposely chose sin over righteouness; disobedience over obedience; death over life?  What?  How can "innocence" CHOOSE EVIL?  Why didn't their "innocence" CHOOSE GOOD?  Ah, did you catch that?  Did you miss it?  What was it that Eve chose?  Did she choose EVIL or did she choose GOOD?  She chose BOTH AT THE SAME TIME!!  "Good AND evil" were both in THE SAME FRUIT!!  I don't believe there is a theologian on earth that understands this enigma!

    You are also wrong in suggesting that sin did not come into the garden until Eve actually ATE THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT.  Not true.  Let's read it if you haven't read my "lake of fire" series:  "And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD [lust of the flesh--this is SIN], and that it was pleasant to THE EYES [lust of the eyes--this is SIN], and a tree to be desired to MAKE ONE WISE [pride of life--this is SIN]....." (Gen. 3:6).  Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN IN THE ENTIRE WORLD  B-E-F-O-R-E  SHE EVER ATE OF THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT.  "For ALL that is in the world [A-L-L the sins of the world come under these three categories], THE lust of the flesh, AND THE lust of the eyes, AND THE pride of life, IS NOT OF THE fATHER, BUT IS OF THE WORLD" (I John 2:15).

    "For the creature [Adam and Eve and all their descendants] was MADE [by GOD] subject to VANITY [Margin: 'futility--failure'], not willingly, but by reason of Him [God] Who has subjected the same in HOPE" (Rom. 8:20).

    Your whole premise is unscriptural.

    God be with you,

    Ray

Great reminder Rene. Thank you for sharing this again.

The heart was created exceedingly weak... So true!
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

John from Kentucky

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2012, 09:48:04 PM »

We know from Gen 3:22 that God has knowledge of good and evil.

Where did God get this knowledge, especially knowledge of evil?

I know Ray has discussed this here:  http://bible-truths.com/video/WhereGodsKnowledgeL.wmv

But I wonder if this is the entire source of His acquisition of such knowledge.

I don't want to start a grand philosophical inquiry.  But humanity is learning of good and evil by experience, by eating fruit from this tree that combines good and evil---we can't get one without the other.

Where did God get this knowledge---by experience too?  We know the verse in Isaiah, which says God created evil.  He had to know it before He created it.  I bet that will be one interesting story.  There is so much we don't know. 
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2012, 04:40:19 AM »





In WISDOM, not in the beginning....IN WISDOM God Created....Prov 4 :7 Wisdom is the principle thing.

Knowledge is not the principle thing....
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Gina

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2012, 08:52:20 AM »

Amen, Deb.  That's right.

If I might add just a couple things...Adam surely had knowledge.  When God brought him all the animals, he knew what to name them. 

Adam also learned that none of those animals would make a good helper meet for him.

When God put Adam and Eve in the garden, God taught them how to till the soil and how to eat.  So they knew a lot.

God wised her and Adam up a little right quick didn't He.  It's like, Um, hello!  I'm naked.  And I'm hidinggggg because I don't anyone to see this!
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 09:53:34 AM by Gina »
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onelovedread

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2012, 01:08:10 PM »

OK. I've been trying to follow this thread. Here's the gist of what I got. I hope I haven't mis-represented anyone. This is mainly for my benefit to understand what's been said. I'd really appreciate any clarification or addition of something I may have missed out. Thx

Eugene: “…would I be on track to conclude that Satan started with a LIE and exhibited a truth to BEGUILE or deceive?”

Marques: “It was a complete lie on Satan's part.”

Eugene “…but God SAYS EXACTLY what Satan said ...”

Marques: “.. God does not say exactly what Satan says.”

Eugene: “THAT DAY, is the key i missed...”

Joel: “Satan is a liar, and loves to lie on God, using scripture if it is a means to beguile and cause someone to miss the mark in serving God.”

Greg: “… I was always told that a good liar uses 90% truth.”

Micah: “I don't see where "Adam and Eve knew they were not (to) eat of this tree, that demonstrates a knowledge of good and evil?" …So where did the woman get this knowledge?”

Indiana Bob: “The woman was the responsibility of the man. So she should have gotten the knowledge from "pillow talk" with her husband.”

Eugene: “Ray mentioned that "Ye" refers to "you all" speaking of more than one person. or an irregular pural of thou. so with that in mind...maybe it's something to, "...he (the serpent) said unto the woman". and not to the man….”

Marques: “The Lord confronted Job in Job 38 by asking, rhetorically, who gives counsel without knowledge. That is not like Eve at all.”

Eugene: “I'm still not seeing how they had a "knowledge (perception, sense)" of something - before they partook of the only tree which had that needed knowledge (as Ray said). ..”

JFK: “Eve sinned before she ate the fruit.  She lusted for it, from her heart, when she looked upon it, before she ate.”

Eugene: “I'm still not seeing they had knowledge before they ate of the tree. I found this interesting too...they didnt even KNOW they were naked”

Marques: “Eugene, what is your point? You seem to want to explain your revelations and only want to hear someone agree with you.”

Eugene: “..isnt a "forum discussion" the point to SHARE thoughts? so we cant share thoughts? by all means, judge them and I will learn..”

Dave: “…God doesn't 'allow' evil, or 'turn evil into good', but INTENDS evil FOR good.”

Gina: “Satan tricks (cheated) us with lies, not the truth.  And, people can't be "tempted" with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth..”

Dave : “Let's not get so caught up examining the trees (reading all the words) that we fail to see the forest (Spirit and Life).”
lilitalienboi16:  “Unfortunately for adam and eve, even after eating the fruit, they were NOTHING like God. They are / were becoming like God but they were FAR from "BEING AS GOD."

Eugene: “..So didn't the "become" gods according to scripture?”

Gina: “..We're lumps of clay.  That's the part Satan left out.  He lied by omission.”

lilitalienboi16:  “Being a god and being AS GOD are two different things.”

Eugene: “So, when will man have the "knowledge" of good and evil? In the next eon? Or is the next eon for judgment of good and evil?”

lilitalienboi16:  “Adam and Eve's understanding of what good and evil was, after having eatin the tree of knowledge of good and evil, hardly equated to the knowledge that God has of these things. Furthermore, this would make satan's statement that IN THAT DAY, they would be as God, a lie.”

Paul Fisher: “Bottom line. Satan used some truth along with a lie to tempt Eve.”


Santgem: “There is no truth in him, Satan. I do believe that it is necessary for Adam and eve to know the good and evil, and that is what God planned!”

Paul Fisher: “Bottom line. Satan's beguiling along with Eve's lusts CAUSED her to break the one commandment and Adam loved his wife and was willing to die for her and so also partook.”

Greg: “Paul according to Rays teachings Adam and Eve did have knowledge.”

Santgem: “Your theory that man would have been happy in the Garden for all eternity if he hadn't eaten of the forbidden fruit is nonsense.”

Kat: “So when the time came for them to move on into the experiences of good and evil (from the world around them) well it was then that Satan entered the picture to draw Eve and Adam with her to the tree of good and evil.”

Gina: “…Christendom likes the fact that God did not give man a fabled free will…”

Arcturus: “How can anyone NOT miss it, being that we are all subject to vainity, and first the natural then the spiritual. So we HAVE to miss it ~ No one can not NOT miss it, for we have all sinned. Eve chose, she chose BOTH, good AND evil that are BOTH in the same fruit.”

lilitalienboi16:  “The heart was created exceedingly weak.”

JFK: “…humanity is learning of good and evil by experience, by eating fruit from this tree that combines good and evil---we can't get one without the other…There is so much we don't know.”

Arcturus: “Wisdom is the principle thing…Knowledge is not the principle thing....”

Gina: “Adam surely had knowledge.… they knew a lot.”








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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2012, 04:07:44 PM »



Excellent minutes of the Meeting dear Scribe of God, JohnCris ~  ;D

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2012, 03:44:03 AM »


LOL.... nearly like, Disciple, discipline....

You are quite right John! ~  8)

The PrincipAl is the CHIEF....as in Wisdom.

The principle is the code, belief, attitude or opinion as in knowledge....

Wisdom is the CHIEF, Knowledge is the Disciple   :) even as Christ is the Head!
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paulfisher

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Re: Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2012, 08:10:06 AM »

Great thread. Bottom line?

Satan lied along with telling some truth to tempt Eve. (Gen 3:4/5) As verse 22 verifies the truth.

("in that day their eyes will be opened" - They were, verse 7. And if their eyes were opened to the knowledge of good and evil that day, they also became as God to know good and evil STARTING THAT DAY. That's the 'some truth' I'm referring to above.)

According to the Scriptures Adam and Eve did NOT have any knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the forbidden fruit.

(I do not say here that Adam and Eve had no knowledge prior to eating the forbidden fruit but that they had NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.)

They had a (one) commandment from God that they broke by eating the forbidden fruit and that was their first sin.

(That is the only sin they were accountable for because at the time not eating of that tree was the only law. "for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom 3:20. "for where no law is, there is no transgression." Rom 4:15.  "For until the law sin WAS in the world:[Of course Ray is correct - sin WAS in the Garden prior to the eating of the forbidden fruit] but sin is not imputed when there is no law." Rom 5:13. "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Rom 7:7. Eve's lusts over the fruit were NOT sins imputed to her but ONLY the sin of breaking the law to not partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.)

Satan's beguiling along with Eve's lusts CAUSED her to break the one commandment [law] and Adam loved his wife and was willing to die for her and so also partook.

Paul

Ps. JohnChris, I can't stop laughing every time I read your post... I hope others here also have a sense of humor...
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 09:04:34 AM by paulfisher »
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