physical universe

[Dave in Tenn]

Akira, I understand what you're saying, and I overstated what I was getting at.  They certainly ARE defined by how (and where) they move, but not ONLY.  I'm more talking about the 'exceptions' to 'fish and fowl' rather than the rule.  Dolphins and whales are not fish, but they live and move in the water.  Some insects fly and others do not.  Even some birds do and others don't.  All of the 'fowl' listed in your quoted scripture are birds, except for bats which are mammals.  I just don't look to scripture for 'details' though I think (and I think Ray made a very strong case for this) the Genesis account is an accurate overview. 

I don't know how 'kinds' came to be in order for their descendants to come after...except that God said "Let the earth/waters bring forth..." and "it came to be so".  I tend to believe that everything that came before (from the microscopic to the the great whales) was necesssary for what came after in the great creative plan of God, including 'species' that are now and long since extinct.  As example, if the earth had not become verdant, then how were the creepers and fliers etc. supposed to live?  Is it 'blasphemous' to extrapolate to apply that to everything?   

God IS in control of the tiniest vibration of the smallest atom, and these make up molecules, including proteins and DNA.  He makes no mistakes and not only knows the end from the beginning, but IS the end and the beginning.  Without Him, NOTHING exists.  That's scripture, and I absolutely believe that.

Why is it that higher creatures (including us) need micro-organisms to live?  Some go so far as to say we are made up of micro-organisms (cells) which reproduce after their kind (tissues) and live and move in their places (organs).  Are these the same as the higher organism of which they are a part?  There's more going on here, I think, than plopping down a bird or a fish and telling it to fill the air or the waters.  Apparently, even the death of a higher creature has a cellular/molecular component.   

Anyway, I have sworn off 'teaching' science--a good thing, since I ain't one.    But I'm not a theologian either, and I'm happier about that one. 

Thanks for calling me out.         

[Kat]

You know this physical universe consists of many realms... it's hard for me to explain, but I'll give it a try. There is life on earth, but there are different realms to this life; there is the microscopic life forms, we can not even see it, but we know it's there and has a very necessary and important function. We cannot communicate or relate in any intelligent way with it, nor enter it's realm.

There is the realm of the insects, we can see them and they serve an important function as well, all things are interconnected. But we cannot communicate with them as they are not intelligent creatures with comprehension, as we know it. They may live out their whole life (only days, sometimes only hours) on a single tree limb and not even have awareness of the world around them.

There is a realm of plant life, I include them because they do have a life cycle. These have no awareness, but they play a necessary even vital role for higher life forms.

There is the aquatic realm, where this form of life must live in water to survive. This is a whole world unto itself, with some forms being plant like, others being insect and still others animal. We can communicate with the higher life forms there to a degree, like dolphins and whales. But we are incompatible and only enter their realm as an outsider, it is a hostile environment to us.

There is the realm of the air/atmosphere of the foul or winged creatures. Those creatures live along side us, but they are very different. We can communicate to a degree, but we certainly cannot relate intellectually and are totally incompatible in the way they live.

Then there is the realm of the mammals, but there is a distinct division here between human and animals. Both forms are aware of one another and can communicate in some ways. But only humans have real intelligence and emotions, animals live by instinct and another thing is animals do not know/understand they will die. So animals live by instinct and though we can train them, it does not make them intelligent, as humans have very different thinking than animals. Animal instincts bind them to their own kind, as human kind are bound together to their own kind and God declares it an abomination to even try to cross kinds (Lev 18:23). So there is a clearly different realm for people and animals, though we do live in close contact with the animal realm, we do not actually enter their realm, become as they are, nor they ours.

Now there is the realm of outer space, it is not a place that we can easily enter and even relate to, it is certainly hostile to us. We can enter that realm to a degree, but only with extreme measures to keep us alive. I want to think of it as more of a great art work of God. He has made the whole universe His canvas and now He has even given man inventions (telescopes) to get vivid pictures of what's out there.

Psa 19:1  To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the expanse proclaims His handiwork.

What I am trying to get across is that there are many physical realms, others that I could not even think to mention, but these are domains for the different 'kinds' of life that God made for it. Man is very special that we are able to learn and know about these other realms, but most of the other domains we are very limited to enter. We were created to live on earth, as the immediate environment around it was specially designed to meet our needs. Other realms are designed for it's inhabitants.

With all these physical realms for the life in this world/universe, we also know there is a whole other kind for a different type of existence, the spiritual realm. I think we can understand it better, by comprehending all these other physical realms, that are not designed for us to enter. Some are designed so tiny, infinitesimally small, yet others are more vast then we can imagine. Now the spiritual is there, but beyond our reach as physical being. But Paul got an actual glimpse in a vision and saw things that was absolutely unexplainable.

2Co 12:4  that he was caught up into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not allowed for a man to utter.

So we are in the physical realm/world for a time, getting an experience of good and evil, stage 1. But we are used to it, after all it is all we know, so we tend to cling to it. But it is not our real and final home.

2Co 5:1  For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
v. 2  For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,

So this physical tent/body is temporary, this world and not even outer space is our goal/destination. Our hope is to move beyond this physical, to a better realm of being. We too, like Paul, are given a glimpse through the Spirit indwelling. I have confidence that the spiritual realm is as glorious as it is depicted in the Scriptures and it will exceed this physical existence as far as the heavens are above the earth.

1Cor 2:9  But as it is written, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard," nor has it entered into the heart of man, "the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[acomplishedartis]

Kat, I like the way you put it all together. I even got exited about what's next!


John, you look like a scientist and talk like a scientist (like a good one), If you would say that you are a scientist I probably would belived you. Nice speech

[jingle52]

Thanks Kat
that really was lovely to read as I understand things so much better when it is put in perspective like that! We all like building castles in the air, but the Scriptures says it All!
May God guide us in our learning and everyday struggles.
Jingle

[rsks]

2 Peter 3:5-7 Message Bible
They conveniently forget that long ago all the galaxies and this very planet were brought into existence out of watery chaos by God's word. Then God's word brought the chaos back in a flood that destroyed the world. The current galaxies and earth are fuel for the final fire. God is poised, ready to speak his word again, ready to give the signal for the judgment and destruction of the desecrating skeptics.

Now we know from Ray that Noah's flood was regional, but check out the rest of the verse that talks about "The current galaxies and earth being fuel for the final fire....

Just me two cents to the discussion.  Love you all, thanks for the Forum as usual, I love to read all you guys post!  Grace and Peace, Kelli

[Kat]

Hi Kelli,

2Pe 3:7  But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Yes indeed the "whole creations" is waiting for "the glorious liberty of the children of God" (Rom 8:22). The word 'galaxies' would be more appropriately as "heavens" I believe, as in the heavenly realm (spirit beings), as well as the earthly realm (physical being) will undergo the "fire... of judgement"

2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

This is figurative langauge here, as we know that the fire this is speaking of is spiritual, not literally fire that will do away with and bring to an end the universe. We have all this symbolic wording in Scripture for there to be the deception, as Jesus said "seeing (as it's right there in the Scripture) they do not see (understand the truth)."

2Th 2:11  And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

Just thought I would add to your comment 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dave]

Kat and Dave. Thank you and Amen!

[Ian]

Is 2 Peter 3:5-7 to be understood literally? What in the literal heavens is burnable? What would fire do to the already hot stars? 

[Patric]

Is 2 Peter 3:5-7 to be understood literally? What in the literal heavens is burnable? What would fire do to the already hot stars?

L. Ray Smith spoke much on this subject. Of course the literal fire burns physical things. But what does Spiritual fire burn. What are the effects? I know the answer......as do all whom our Father reveals these things.....

Fight fire with fire! Well ya that is not a physical fire huh? Nor is the lake of fire, or the fire we will all be tested with our works, or the fiery trials we will all be going through, nor is the fire we will be salted with, and the Spirit to which baptism happens, oooo and my favorite the flaming sword that guards the tree of life. Fire fire everywhere! We know the outcome of a physical fire. Spiritual fire which our Father claims he is a consuming fire! Give me this fire.