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Author Topic: Women being in submisson  (Read 4031 times)

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mavis92379

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Women being in submisson
« on: October 23, 2012, 12:04:36 AM »

Im having trouble with the verses in 1 Cor 11 that say a women must be in subjection to her husband. Also that it is a shame for a women to speak in church.

Sometimes the verses sound a little harsh towards women. I was just loking for some interpetation because I know God is no respector of person.

Thanks,

Matt
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Samson

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2012, 12:56:30 AM »

Im having trouble with the verses in 1 Cor 11 that say a women must be in subjection to her husband. Also that it is a shame for a women to speak in church.

Sometimes the verses sound a little harsh towards women. I was just loking for some interpetation because I know God is no respector of person.

Thanks,

Matt


Dear Mr. Jackson:
Certainly women are able to declare God's Truth, as you state. It is also true that those baptized into Christ are, "...neither male nor female...IN CHRIST."  (Gal. 2:27-28).  But we are also still IN THE FLESH, and in the flesh, we are indeed male and female.  If the statement that IN Christ there is no "difference" between male and female, then homosexuality would be perfectly fine.  Can you not see the problem here with thinking like that?
 
When Paul instructed the early Church that women were to keep silent in the Church, it was not just a "Jewish custom and tradition." Here is another declaration from Paul concerning men and women still in the flesh: "But I would have you know, that the Head of every man is Christ, and the HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; and the Head of Christ is God"  (I Cor. 11:3).  This statement is not "custom and tradition.
 
When Paul says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches...." (I Cor. 14:34) it is not custom or tradition, but rather "...the things I write unto you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD" (Verse 37).
 
Also understand that women are no some inferior species that will be absorbed into the male species. Yes, both are called "the sons [some times children[ of God," but this is often used as is "Adam"  and "man" in the Genesis when really referring to "humanity" in the Hebrew.
 
When God "receives us unto Himself," are we all "males?"  "Masculine?"
Notice what the Scripture tells us:  "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons AND DAUGHTERS, says the Lord Almighty"  (II Cor. 6:18).
 
Anyway, I'll write a paper on this subject one day, but not today.
God be with you,
Ray
 
But for the reasons of authority mentioned above and other reasons too numerous to cover in an email, God has ordained that women are not to be the teachers in formal meetings of the congregations.

Dear George:

I am thinking that you believe Gal. 3:27 voids out I Cor. 14:34?  If it does, the why would Paul have written it?

The answer is quote simple:

"IN CHRIST" there is no "male or female."  But, IN THE FLESH there still is male and female, otherwise homosexuality would not be a sin. Can you see how silly that approach to this Scripture would be?

We are still in physical bodies and we are still male and female, and as such the man is the head of the woman just as Jesus is the head of the Church. And as such, Paul did not permit women to preach or teach in the congregation.  However, there are many situation in which women can teach: to their children (both girls and boys); on the telephone, in letters, in group discussions, etc.  I believe their teaching is just pretty much limited in the area of not getting in front of an assembly of men and women and being featured as the main speaker or teacher. Not that she might not be able or qualified, but rather it is a matter of subjection to authority.  I have never done a long study on this subject, but I have read several papers by those who have, and most of them are shot through with theological holes.

God be with you,

Ray

Dear Bryant:  Your Bible says the same thing mine does, I reckon. We have two witnesses to the fact that Paul did not allow women to be teachers or preachers in the Congregation. Unless something can show me that these verses do not mean what they say, I can only conclude that they mean what they say.
God be with you,
Ray
 
PS   I have read the arguments that because God used women to lead Israel in the past (Example: Deborah), women should therefore be permitted to teach in the congregation, but I don't see how they get around Paul's declarations to the contrary.

As the above Email answers of Ray indicate, these Scriptures presented are clear on this matter, I don't see any way around it, but don't forget, a Man's Head is Christ and Men have allot to answer for from their Head, Christ if We don't assign honor to Our Wives as the weaker Vessel and Love them as Christ Loved the Ecklesia. None of the above has anything to do with a Woman's worth or Value or not being equal, it's a submission to Authority issue like Christ being in Submission to His Father, a Godly ordained arrangement, I guess. None of the above has anything to do with a Women's ability to Teach, Preach or Preside over a Church, just a divine arrangement while in the flesh.

Note: If you find a Women that's completely submissive to a Man, please let Me know where to find Her, just kidding Sisters,  ;D ;D ;D, it would be like finding a Man that's completely submissive to Christ, while in the Flesh. Oh, by the way, don't tell my wife about this,  ;) ;D.


Carry On, a dangerous thread indeed, Samson, oh, oh.
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noeleena

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2012, 05:16:35 AM »

Hi,
As A ? what church is this about, & how would we be a part of that church,

As theres a miner detail going on here thats over looked,

Allso it seems is reverlation ....only.... to be seen as... all ...symbolic,

...noeleena...
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 05:22:44 AM by noeleena »
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moshe

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2012, 05:20:21 AM »


Carry On, a dangerous thread indeed, Samson, oh, oh.

ha ha. Dangerous tread ha.    I agree that as Jesus is to us, man should be for the woman. That little verse says so much.
                                       

mmm,what about a community of believers where there is only woman's? and so, there is a woman that teach in front?...
(just saying...)

I am not married, and I have never have a ''girlfriend'', I would like to get married some day but I am not sure about having kids, probably not. (even so I like kids).

God help us men's to be good imitators of the Master...

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Revilonivek

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2012, 02:02:22 PM »

Is there any other person in the new testament  that said the same thing as Paul did about women being under the man, shouldn't teach and be quiet in churches? Let me know? Thanks?

Denise
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Kat

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2012, 02:08:24 PM »


Hi Matt,

There is a clear order of authority that is put into place and this was started all the way back in the garden of Eden.

Gen 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."

There needs to be one as head, to lead and have the final say. This is an great responsibility given to the man, symbolic to Christ as head of the body/church.

Eph 5:22  Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
v. 23  For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
v. 24  Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

Yes we have an order of things put in place, but I do not believe women are meant to be derogated by their place, it is what it is. This life is but a moment/vapor/mist (James 4:14) in time, and this life is a struggle "experience in evil" for us all whatever position we hold. So we are in this life with a certain allotment, that hardly ever seems fair, but the main purpose of this life is to give us experience. We are building a character, good and bad, from which God will have something to shape and mold into something good, for most that will be in the Lake of fire judgment.

It's not so much the position you hold, but what you do where ever you find yourself. The world struggles for a position of authority among men/women, if we are not of this world then that should not be so with us. Though we do have a certain order in the places we hold now, for a few God is causing to live righteously now, by the Spirit indwelling, where ever we are. Paul also spoke on how we should do this.

Col 3:11  Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
v. 12  Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,
v. 17  And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
v. 18  Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
v. 19  Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.
v. 20  Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.
v. 21  Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.
v. 22  Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.
v. 23  Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,
v. 24  knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.
v. 25  For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2012, 04:00:18 PM »

Is there any other person in the new testament  that said the same thing as Paul did about women being under the man, shouldn't teach and be quiet in churches? Let me know? Thanks?

Denise

Yes.  That person would be Jesus Who called, converted (in a few seconds), and chose Paul to be one of the great leaders of the church.

All Scriptures from Genesis through Revelation are the Words of Jesus.  It was Jesus Who caused Paul to write what he wrote.  That is why those who have the Spirit of Jesus respect what Paul wrote as well as all 49 books of the Scriptures.

Amen John!
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lilitalienboi16

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2012, 04:02:21 PM »

God does like to have His little jokes.

Who was the first human recorded in Scriptures to see and touch Jesus after His Resurrection?  His close friends the Apostles?  No.  Who was it that was sent to tell the Apostles of the Resurrection?  Some great manly man who was a leader of other men?  No.   ;D ;D ;D

It was a woman, Mary Magdalene, who loved Him greatly.  Who had had problems with evil spirits.  It was no accident she was chosen first to see Him.  Love is the most important aspect of God, and she loved greatly.  And her love was acknowledged with this special and unique privilege to see Him first.  It also shows God holds women in high esteem and loves both His daughters and His sons.

Double Amen! It's all in the perspective and that perspective should be through love. A man as the head of a woman, fearing God and loving as Christ did, would never make his wife feel as though she is below him or lowly and a servant or slave. She would feel his love, protection, and guidance as we all feel our Lords love, protection and guidance for us. It's the same thing, as Christ loves His bride, so are men to love their wives. As Christ layed down His life for us all, so are we to lay down our lives for ours.

To kathy; Beautifully put!
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

SDDiver

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2012, 07:09:31 PM »

as well as all 49 books of the Scriptures.

I thought there were 66 books.
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Revilonivek

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2012, 08:34:14 PM »

God does like to have His little jokes.

Who was the first human recorded in Scriptures to see and touch Jesus after His Resurrection?  His close friends the Apostles?  No.  Who was it that was sent to tell the Apostles of the Resurrection?  Some great manly man who was a leader of other men?  No.   ;D ;D ;D

It was a woman, Mary Magdalene, who loved Him greatly.  Who had had problems with evil spirits.  It was no accident she was chosen first to see Him.  Love is the most important aspect of God, and she loved greatly.  And her love was acknowledged with this special and unique privilege to see Him first.  It also shows God holds women in high esteem and loves both His daughters and His sons.


So In other words, no one else said that except paul in the new testament. The thing is, you need two witnesses to establish every truth and no one backed Paul on that part in new testament. What Paul said is clearly sexist. It's one of the sensitive subjects so I'll leave it alone.

Denise
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Samson

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2012, 11:42:51 PM »

God does like to have His little jokes.

Who was the first human recorded in Scriptures to see and touch Jesus after His Resurrection?  His close friends the Apostles?  No.  Who was it that was sent to tell the Apostles of the Resurrection?  Some great manly man who was a leader of other men?  No.   ;D ;D ;D

It was a woman, Mary Magdalene, who loved Him greatly.  Who had had problems with evil spirits.  It was no accident she was chosen first to see Him.  Love is the most important aspect of God, and she loved greatly.  And her love was acknowledged with this special and unique privilege to see Him first.  It also shows God holds women in high esteem and loves both His daughters and His sons.


So In other words, no one else said that except paul in the new testament. The thing is, you need two witnesses to establish every truth and no one backed Paul on that part in new testament. What Paul said is clearly sexist. It's one of the sensitive subjects so I'll leave it alone.

Denise


Hello Denise,

Here are the Scriptures that deal with Submission or Subjection and none of these discredit or devalue or limit a Woman's worth and how much God truly loves them.

The Apostle Peter speaks !

1Pe 3:1  Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

1Pe 3:5  For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
1Pe 3:6  Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
1Pe 3:7  Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Subjection: ὑποτάσσω
hupotassō
hoop-ot-as'-so
From G5259 and G5021; to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

G5021
τάσσω
tassō
tas'-so
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); TO ARRANGE IN AN ORDERLY MANNER, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): - addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set. (caps for emphasis are mine)

Notice in 1Peter. 3:6 it mentions Sarah obeying Abraham, so Peter is referring to a situation taking place in Genesis.

Col 3:18  Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
Another Scriptural Witness at Colossians !

Obey: G5219
ὑπακούω
hupakouō
hoop-ak-oo'-o
From G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.

Tit 2:5  To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

So, altogether We have the following  Scriptural Witnesses: 1) Ephesians. 5:22-24; Colossians. 3:18; 1Peter. 3:1,5 & 6; Titus. 2:5; Genesis. 3:16. That's five Scriptural Witnesses involving Paul, Peter & Moses through inspiration by & from God.

As stated earlier, this is an arrangement for Male & Female in the Flesh and none of the writers were sexist or intending to degrade Women. To support the highly accountable position that Men have in this arrangement if they don't treat their Wife properly, their prayers could be hindered if they don't honor their wives. Men will receive an accounting from their Spiritual Head, Christ.

Honor: G5092
τιμή
timē
tee-may'
From G5099; a value, that is, money paid, or (concretely and collectively) valuables; by analogy esteem (especially of the highest degree), or the dignity itself: - honour, PRECIOUS, price, some.

Hindered: G1581
ἐκκόπτω
ekkoptō
ek-kop'-to
From G1537 and G2875; to exscind; figuratively to frustrate: - cut down (off, out), hew down, hinder.

That concludes my contribution to this thread, don't know how to explain it any further, except to add a little Agape Love meant by God's intentions for Women.

Hope This Helps, Samson.


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ICXCNIKA

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2012, 12:01:45 AM »

If I'm not mistaken, I believe Ray touched on what "subjection to her husband" means, i.e., Man is to love and protect her. Or something along those lines.  Forgive the short response....(It's just a quick thought).  ;D
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Revilonivek

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2012, 02:33:38 AM »

Samson. I get it. But Paul said women are not to teach and are not allowed to speak and must remain quiet in church. That is clearly sexist. Peter said it with love and meant well. He also never said women shouldn't teach or speak and must be quiet in church either. But I'm sure Paul  had his reasons for saying it but did u know that it is also a cultural tradition in jewish synagonues that women aren't allowed to speak at all and are seated in the back in Paul's time.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2012, 04:13:28 AM »

1.  I don't go to an assembly, so I don't really care any longer what they do there.  Let the strifes, envies and murders continue until those He is calling out repent.

2.  If you do go, then do as Paul instructed.  Or don't.  There are plenty of silent women, and also some lesbian pastors at the other extreme.  Somewhere in all of that--extremes or the middle--you can find a place to fit.  Do what you want.

3.  While you're there, I hope you can also find a few men who are Christ-like, able to teach their wives, and love them as Christ loved His church.  Harder than finding a silent woman, I'm guessing, but the commandment stands for both.  ALL this is about being conformed to His image.  We've all got our challenges to live and HUMBLING to do.  That's why Paul wrote what he wrote, under the inspiration of God.  We ARE male and female in the flesh.  We're going to be till we are saved from it.  What comes after is the purification of what we lived IN it.   
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 04:28:49 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

moshe

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2012, 04:50:27 AM »

There were laws, and behind each rule, there is the spiritual side of each one (baptizing, sacrifices, etc). Then Jesus said, your heard that ..........., But I say, Don't even think about it!..  Now, Jesus was dealing with the spirit behind the rule-the main attitude coming out from the heart.

When true believers get together in home bible studies and conferences, that's an assembly of believers, (like the first communities of believers on the beginnings).

I recognize that what Paul said sounds sexiest. But, that's just in the surface, you know...not everything is what in seems. Now, I doubt that when Paul was writing what he said that he was thinking so naively:''yes, men's are better than woman's'', (nor he was just repeating a custom of his time), No, there is more behind the rule, The real spirit behind the rule! After all he was the one who said that whatever we do with out conviction - is a mistake.

I believe there are MANY reasons why he said that, (I have some good ones in my mind-but I will keep them for my self), I am sure many here will be able to figure even more.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 05:01:00 AM by Moises G. »
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Gina

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2012, 05:08:59 AM »

I thought Paul said that women arent to teach because it was the woman who was deceived. 

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

I believe Moises has said it best.  Men's minds will be led astray from PURE devotion to CHRIST.  What are the majority of preachers and teachers in the physical church doing today?  Trying to impress each other?  No, I think they're trying to impress their wives and their mistresses and other women.  Women are typically the ones saying to their husbands, come on Hon, let's go to church!  We have to go to church!

Denise, you're funny.  Please don't start with the whole "Paul hates women" thing.  I get so sick of hearing that.  Paul didn't hate women.

Matt, see what you've started!  LOL

Yes, women are to be in subjection to their husbands.  (There's nothing as unbecoming as to see a woman lording it over her husband, except to see a man mistreating his wife.)

Denise -- go learn what this means:  WHOEVER WANTS TO BE GREATEST AMONG YOU MUST BE SERVANT OF ALL.

Luke 22

Strife Over Greatness

24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.

26 But you shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that does serve.

27 For who is greater, he that sits at table, or he that serves? is not he that sits at table? but I am among you as he that serves.


Stop feeling sorry for yourself and trying to get other women who may cross this thread all up in arms over something that you don't understand.  Here you are, married??  Have you taken your husband's name??  Did you not read that Paul said that it's better to NOT be married?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 05:18:25 AM by Gina »
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cherokee

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2012, 08:40:06 AM »

Here is a link to the study Ray did on this that should help.

Esther-The Destiny of Woman

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5506.0.html

Blessings,
Suzie
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Craig

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Re: Women being in submisson
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2012, 10:38:25 AM »

This horse has been beaten many times in the past and as far as I'm concerned he is dead.  No use resurrecting him again now.  The answers given are good, if you need to see more just do a search on the subject on the forum.

Craig
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Revilonivek

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Marriage/Paul
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2012, 12:07:19 PM »

I didn't get a chance to read the rest of the posts in women to submit topic post until this morning.

I wanted to add that I was thinking, why the point with these sexist rules when Jesus clearly taught that church isn't a phycical thing, And there's nor male or female but It isn't an issue now,  Like Craig said. We know what frees us and stay with it.

Gina, read the rest of the scriptures why Paul suggested not to marry, is because he said Jesus was coming soon and they should not bother with marriages unless they have needs that only marriage can help. Some people can do it, some people can't. Paul thought Jesus was coming in his time. Every generation thinks that way and leaders encourages people to be ready in case.

It's a sensitive subject like I said before. We already know what frees us and it's not an issue anyway. No need to beat the bush.
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