> Introductions, Announcements, and More of Ray's Teachings
Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
theophilus:
--- Quote from: Game Over on January 07, 2013, 03:53:57 AM ---There's absolutely no way to completely comprehend a being Who has been around since time immemorial in the span of a short lifetime. And if you say you haven't begun to scratch the surface, then you probably haven't.
And with that, I'm out. All the best to you, Theo. :)
--- End quote ---
Sorry I included you. I should have spoken for myself. My bad. All the best to you too.
Dave in Tenn:
I also had 'problems' with this idea, theophilus. But in my case, they came about before the Nashville conference in 2008. Since I could no longer see 'creation' itself as an easy and instantaneous event but a full on demostration of the power and 'Godliness' of Jesus it was easier to accept the 'creation' of the Son. The underlying message of Scripture is that God is creating mankind in His Image. That's the Parable of scripture.
Ray also taught that it is axiomatic that in order for there to be a 'Father', there first has to be a Son. So to my mind, when the Creation of the family of God began, it began with a Son. The family "business" is Creation. And it is the First Born who marshalls the resources provided by the Father to do this 'family business' and be the Creator and Sustainer of All things Seen.
It could be that when Jesus said He came to declare the Father, He was declaring the Family. If a woman gives birth to her first child, something other than a new unique individual happens (though that does). A new 'creation' happens--the creation of a family. It also changes the 'name' of the woman to 'mother'. Of course, God does things in a big way, leaving nothing undone.
Where does that leave us--especially those who believe? I think somewhere still in the birth canal, the sure promise of Sonships, but not yet completely delivered. Still in 'travail'. Adopted in the womb.
Anyways, there isn't a 'relationship' mentioned in Scripture that completely explains this 'relationship' of The Lord Jesus to His creation. He is Father, Elder brother, Husband, Ruler and Lover. And He is also Potter to our clay. It's good to embrace all of these, and then some, if we want to get a taste of 'family life'.
theophilus:
Hello Dave, I understand what you're saying. I would add that for there to be a Son, there has to be a Father AND a Mother. Is there any scripture that references this 'mother'? Meditating on the scriptures, I've wondered if the Spirit of God might be the one playing the mother role.
In Genesis 1:1, we read that after God created the heavens and the earth, the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the waters. Why was God's spirit "hovering" over the surface of the waters? Was it to create the right conditions for the first forms of life to develop in the waters? Evolution explains that it was in the oceans that the first forms of life emerged.
It's only at this point of the narrative that God's spirit is said to be involved in the creation. The spirit HOVERED over the surface of the waters. Young's Literal Translation of the Bible states that " the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,"
Notice the verb 'fluttering'. This fluttering had to be significant and had to have an effect on the water. It's as if this was one step of many in the preparation of our planet for it to sustain life.
Genesis 1:1-2 (YLT): In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --
2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
What do you think? Blessings. Have a wonderful day.
indianabob:
Hi Theo...
I have to disagree on principle with your statement below: "and a Mother"
God is NOT said to have begat Adam and Eve. God "created" Adam and Eve without any other "personage" being involved. Also it may be incorrect to view God as a person in the sense that we usually use that word. God is "spirit" and any anthropomorphic description is to help us relate to the lesson being given rather than to demonstrate a fact about God.
God speaks, has a thought etc. and the thing spoken begins to exist.
Kindly offered, Indiana bob
"Hello Dave, I understand what you're saying. I would add that for there to be a Son, there has to be a Father AND a Mother. Is there any scripture that references this 'mother'? Meditating on the scriptures, I've wondered if the Spirit of God might be the one playing the mother role."
Kat:
Hi theophilus,
If you haven't gotten to the 2008 conference you might find it very interesting, as it deals a lot with the creation. Here is a excerpt from it.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9502.msg80843.html#msg80843 -------
When in the Big Bang, according to scientists there was for so long this explosion spread out, but it was a considerable time before there was light. Because it was so dense… I mean you pack one hundred billion galaxies with one hundred billion stars into a grapefruit - mustard seed. It was in a since an exploding black hole. There was no light. Scientists will say there was no light… light could not escape and there were no heavy metals. There was no iron or tin or led or gold or silver, it was the hydrogen atom. So not only do you condense the whole universe down to the size of a grapefruit or a mustard seed, you condense the whole universe down to hydrogen. This is mind boggling.
But scientists will tell you not only was everything that exists in the universe, in that exploding central point, not only was it all in there, it was infinitesimally timed to the trillionth of a mega second. It had to be perfectly timed. The timing had to be flawless beyond imagination or it wouldn’t have worked. We wouldn’t have what we have today.
Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form (or more like formless, not that it didn’t have any form at all, it was formless) and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Now I’m not completely sold on the idea yet, that this is totally speaking about water covering the earth, although it certainly did. But I think it has a larger meaning. Remember that old song, Bridge Over Troubled Waters? In a sense I think that is what this is talking about. This is the beginning of the creation and its troubled waters. You get the idea that something is not right here.
Some will say, ‘it should read and the earth became without form and void.’ Well, actually yes it did in a sense ‘became,’ but not at this point. Again, the Hebrew here is pluperfect in English. It would more accurately be translated, “and the earth,” and is correct, the word ‘and’ is in there. “And the earth” is one word in Hebrew, it’s erets. There is the word earth and then a sign for ‘and,’ and a sign for ‘the.’ So that’s all in there. It isn’t just the word there, only earth. No, it’s “and the earth.” It’s in there, and the earth was…
Now the only way you can translate that “was,” is if you translated and the earth was - already. It was already void (and vacant) and darkness was upon the face of the earth. But a better translation would be, “and the earth had existed.” Pluperfect English, past tense, had existed. The earth was already this way or had existed in this condition.
Notice what God says next.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light:
Let there be light. What do scientists tell us happened after the big bang? It took awhile before there was light. In the beginning He had created the heavens and the earth, but there was no light. Three verses later He tells us in the third verse “let there be light,“ and it should read, “and there became light.”
So you see how this idea of a big bang is not that stupid and atheistic and evolutionary nonsense and all of that. Millions of scientists work with the laws of physics and quantum math and all of these things, cosmology and astronomy. All of their knowledge of all of the laws of physics fit into the model that the heavens and the earth had a beginning from a central point that exploded out very rapidly. It’s the only thing that fits, nothing else fits. There is no other theory that fits except this thing that they’ve come up with, the Big Bang. You could call it the big spreading out and it would sound more scriptural. The fact of the matter is, it is scriptural. Christ calls it the spreading out, scientists call it the Big Bang, which is just another term for spreading out rapidly and powerfully from a central beginning.
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Here are the links to the audios and transcripts.
2008 Nashville Conference audios
Saturday morning part #1: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession1.mp3
Saturday morning part #2: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession2.mp3
Saturday morning part #3: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession3.mp3
Saturday morning part #4: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession4.mp3
Saturday morning part #5: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession5.mp3
Saturday morning part #6: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession6.mp3
Saturday afternoon part #7: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession7.mp3
Sunday morning part #8A: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession8A.mp3
Sunday morning part #8B: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession8B.mp3
Sunday morning part #9: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession9.mp3
Sunday morning part #10: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession10.mp3
Transcripts
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9502.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8385.0.html
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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