Let us reason...

[Gina]

I am amazed at what I just read in Isaiah.  It's like I'm seeing it for the first time without the blinders:

I especially like how God, through Ray, gave me permission to be completely honest with Him without fear of punishment to ask questions like, "How can sins ever become white as snow"?   Sins???


Isaiah ch. 1:

18 "Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.

Whereas before I would have read that verse and thought, oh, ok, so my sins are like scarlet  but can be transformed(?) into something pure, like, white snow or wool?  But that makes no sense to me.  At all.  I was under the impression that sins are the breaking of God's laws, and that's carnal; and anything carnal is bad and has to go, like, be burned out of us, not become something good and pure like white snow.  It specifically says your sins (not your good works) shall be as white as snow.

Mental gymnastics.... here I come...............


Anybody notice that before now?

[levycarneiro]

Very interesting!

Also it doesn't say: you shall be as white as snow...

(Which is how I thought this read)

Also interested to know/learn more on this!

[onelovedread]

Just as Ray taught in LOF 1 on the book of Revelation, I would suggest that these associations apply in Isaiah also and represent truths that are presented in symbols (here, similes and metaphors). The literal language is not the literal truth being presented. The statements themselves do not teach us the truth of the statements... Ray teaches that without the spirit of God, we will never understand these symbols.  It is God Who provides us with "ears to hear and eyes to see." What do you think, Gina?

[Gina]

Thanks Levy.  Love having your input.


Thanks for your input as well, JohnChris.    I agree there is a higher spiritual application to "will become white as snow" and "like wool."   But when I read the word "sin" or "sins" I believe it means sins -- not a simile for something else. 

Oh well, we here who are long timers know that Ray never discussed this subject specifically and maybe I shouldn't have posted it as it could lead to teaching. 

If the mods feel it should be locked or removed, please don't hesitate.  I don't want to cause any problems. 

Thanks!  Peace!  Love!  And Happy Food Coma Day!!!  (Who wants to bet Kat's bringing the deviled eggs!  I could eat those things till they're coming out of my ears.  MMmmmm.mm! :-D )

[Dave in Tenn]

Actually Gina, it's kind of odd to see this brought up, because it leaped into my mind (the question, not the answer) just a few days ago.  For my part I'm waiting for a spiritually matched second witness, and will do my best to resist anything that isn't, before following a train of thought too far.  Still, it's not for nothing that we have learned 'this much' and as long as I don't let 'this' go I ought to be able to see truths elsewhere in scripture that don't contradict.  That's been the case since the earliest weeks of coming to believe.

Here's where I am right now.  Consider the story of Joseph and his brothers.  As Ray taught from Scripture, God actually intends evil for good.  In a way, Joseph's brothers--though THEY intended evil and sinned against Joseph--were part of God's plan to save the family when famine hit.  Did the brothers' sin become white as snow, and become white as wool when that happened?  Are there other examples?  Not quite as plainly put, but had there been no-one to deliver inordinate blows to Paul, or no Pharisees and scribes to provide contrast to and for the disciples Jesus is calling, and no Jerusalem to crucify Him...where would the plan of God be?

Just to add, I think a re-reading of the Judas paper might be valuable to understanding.

http://bible-truths.com/JudasNotBorn.htm   

As with all threads, we'll just have to see where this leads before tackling what to do about it.

Side note on a side dish:  My sister changed her devilled egg recipe and put some more 'heat' in it.  Didn't go down as easy and creamy, but was a more memorable experience.    

[Gina]

Dave, thanks. 

(Deviled eggs with a kick, you say?  See now that's a true-blue deviled egg.  he he)

I amazed by your reply...  I also thought of the story of Joseph and his brothers as a spiritual match:  they meant it for evil against Joseph, but God meant it for good for everyone involved.  If they'd had things their way, they would have all starved, so God had to provoke them with a coat of many colors and favoritism.  (Can't you just hear someone asking, Well, how come God didn't just give them food to eat and not cause a famine?  Or why didn't God simply have the Pharaoh go hire Joseph and bring him and his whole family with him?  Because that way, no one would have sinned, and no one would have had to have gotten put in a hard spot!  See?  ha ha  I can see myself asking that too.  Not judging.  But by asking that we do completely away with the backdrop of evil which is necessary to show up the goodness and strength and power of God to work all together for good.)  It's definitely a picture of something much grander.  It's like, Order coming from chaos.  Ray said:

God made the lemons and God changed the lemons into lemonade.

God is the Potter and we are the clay. God first made the clay in His hands "marred/ruined"—LEMONS, before "...He made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it"—LEMONADE (Jer. 18:4).

Therefore, "For as in Adam ALL DIE [the marred, ruined clay—lemons] even so in Christ shall ALL [it's the same 'all' as 'in Adam'—it's the SAME CLAY {Adam means 'clay'}--lemons] BE MADE ALIVE ['another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it'—LEMONADE]."

It is God Who makes both the lemons and the lemonade. God is in control of His creation from beginning to end:

From:  The Lake of Fire - Part 15

It's also interesting to me to note just who Jehovah is speaking to:

10 Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah.

The rules were apparently pointed out here in verse 1:

The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Anyway, thanks again for your input.    We don't have to turn this into  marathon post.  I just thought it was wild, but the closer I look at the surrounding verses and following chapters, it's pretty clear what's being said.  I just saw that and I zeroed in on those verses and I thought, Hey, that's not right... (think Jim Gaffigan lol)

Talk to you all later.

[Rhys 🕊]

I think God is doing a great work in us beyond our comprehension and understanding. To turn our sins into  snow and wool seems impossible to me especially when you see how stained you are. It's all God's work but we will all learn righteousness and God will be All in all as spoken by Ray below:


From: Was it better for Judas had he not been born?

CAN JUDAS BE FORGIVEN?
God inspired Isaiah to write:
"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool" (Isaiah 1:18).
Since God told the entire nation of Judah that their scarlet and crimson sins could be forgiven, who can stand in condemnation and forbid salvation to one single man, and a man whom we are told repented?
Where is there a sin that cannot and/or will not be forgiven? Do you believe there is a sin that will "NEVER" be forgiven? Do you think there is a Scripture that states such a thing? See my commentary on "The unpardonable sin."
The atonement of Jesus covers the sins of "the WHOLE WORLD" I John 2:2.
John the Baptist said: "Behold the Lamb that takes away THE SINS OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29). Yes, it will take God's Judgments to bring about the repentance of the whole world, but this is what God has prophesied:
"For when [not now, but 'when'] Thy Judgments are in the earth the inhabitants of the world [how many is that?] WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isaiah 9:26).
The forgiveness of the whole world is not as yet a fact, BUT IT WILL BE.


It seems to me that we are in a process phase of our sins being dealt with. I will let Ray best explain but another of his comments below:


As for your question on what happened to the sins that Jesus paid the penalty for? They are still alive and well on planet Earth. Jesus never "removed" the sins of the world. Rather, Jesus is "the propitiation for our sins and the sins of the whole world" (I John 2;2). Jesus DIED for our sins. But Jesus did not REMOVE the sins of the world. The salvation of humankind is a process. That's why we live our lives, and those who died ignorantly or as infants will be resurrected and live again. There is much they need to overcome.

John the Baptist said in John 1:29, "Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES away the sin of the world." It doesn't say he "took" away their sins, that he "will take" away their sin, but rather it is in the Greek aorist tens (indefinite--past, present, future)--"...The Lamb of God which IS TAKING away the sin of the world." "IS TAKING" is the proper translation. It is a process. As God cleanses us of our sin through His Holy spirit, our sins are BEING TAKEN away, but not so the rest of humanity which are presently either the "many called," or the NOT called.


God is perfect and is perfecting us with all of our baggage and everything else going on in our lives including our sins. Again I will let Ray take the next bit:


From LOF part 3

BECOMING PERFECT
Jesus Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS, and that accomplishes the SALVATION OF THE WHOLE WORLD, because God will eventually bring every creature in HEAVEN AND IN EARTH to repentance and humble submission to Jesus Christ (Phil. 2:9-11, Rom. 10:9, I Cor. 15:25). But forgiving sin, pardoning sin, justifying our sinful past, or even redeeming our bodies and giving us incorruptible and immortal bodies, does NOT make us perfect in deed and character!
God is PERFECT! And God wants His children to BE PERFECT! And believe it or not God WILL ... MAKE ... US ... PERFECT!
"He [God] chooses us in Him [Christ] before the disruption [foundation] of the world, we to be HOLY and FLAWLESS [PERFECT] in His sight..." (Eph. 1:4).
"You, then, shall be PERFECT as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Mat. 5:48).
"I in them, and Thou in Me, that they [that's US] may be made PERFECT in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me" (John 17:23).
"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man PERFECT in Christ Jesus" (Col. 1:28).
People are quick to say, "Well, NOBODY is perfect." That's not true:
"For it became HIM, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many [that's us and the rest of the world] sons unto glory, to make the CAPTAIN of their salvation PERFECT [how?] Through SUFFERING" (Heb. 2:10).
Yes, maybe no one but Christ is perfect now, but it won't always be that way. Paul knew that it was a process and that it would be ultimately God's achievement:


God is taking away our sins and finally dealing with them in a way that he only knows and knows is the best, and you know when God is finished with it, guess what it will look like – Snow. I would say that God is not  taking our sins and getting rid of them but He is cleaning us through the suffering that we experience and when they are finally taken away then only whiteness remains. What else can be left when God has dealt with it in His perfect way.

From reading Ray's material that's how I see it. In my mind take a rotten apple and reverse back in time to a beautifully formed crisp yummy tasting apple and I guess that's what God is doing in His way.

Apologies if I am missing the mark here, it's just my contribution on how I see sins becoming snow.

God bless

Rhys

[Gina]

That is a great reply.  Thanks, Rhys. 

Check this out:

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent love among yourselves: for love shall cover a multitude of sins.

That blanket of love will make their sins white as snow (love is pure like snow). 
That covering of love is like wool.  Inasmuch as wool covers and warms, so does love. 

That Peter 4:8 verse is basically saying what Jehovah is saying to the rulers and the people in Isaiah Chapter 1, where He was saying (I will paraphrase lol ), Hey party people, don't just pretend you love Me by bringing Me what amounts to trinkets and putting on a show or a display, but truly love each other and care for those less fortunate instead of taking advantage of them and/or ignoring their cries.

I love it.   Thanks again Rhys and Dave for pointing me back to the Judas paper.  That was a huge help.

[Rhys 🕊]

Excellent verse there Gina, from Proverbs 10:12 I believe and wonderful to think that God's blanket of love is extending over All. Great to experience God's love now and love others with that love but also great to know that God's love will be experienced by those that don't yet know or care. Have had times in prayer when I have experienced God's love like you mentioned like a blanket of love. The only disappointing thing is I wish others would experience this but praise God one day all will. I guess all I can do now is love others and God will do His thing.

God bless

Rhys

[Gina]

That's exactly the conclusion I drew too.  We love others because it covers a multitude of sins, but then I woke up this morning with this verse on my mind:

Isaiah 26:10 Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.


And Joseph didn't immediately show his brothers "favor" after what they did.  First, they were judged (God got them to pretty much judged themselves [If you judge yourselves, you will not be condemned with the world] because they were scared when Joseph "found" the money in their satchels and then reflected back on how they left Joseph for dead --"This is all happening because we did such and such to Joseph...")

So, before our sins can become white as snow and like wool, we have to be brought to repentance through judgment (we have to be shaking in our boots), because niceties and favors before judgment have no effect on people -- we just keep on doing what we did before.   (Isaiah 26:9 When thy judgments are in the earth the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness
)

Isaiah 26:12 LORD, you will ordain peace for us: for you also have done all our works in us.

And who better appreciates peace than someone who's been through war? 

Cool.  Thanks guys.

[Dave in Tenn]

I'd agree that 'favors' have no effect on people before they are caused to repent, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Love has no effect.  Love has the greatest effect.  Love is at the root of judgement.  Love is at the very least a large part of what makes judgement work.  It's also the main result of judgement.  Root, stem, and fruit.  Spent some time with a toddler and a six-year-old yesterday, something I don't get to do often.  No doubt they needed 'correction' from time to time.  Witholding 'favors' is a form of that.  But not witholding love.

I think we are being 'grown' to express a maturing love that will one day be as perfect as His.  Until then, the 'commandment' is judgement on and for us. 

Sorry for the hippy-dippy sermon.     But I stand by it.

   

[Gina]

I have corrected my post.  You are absolutely right, Dave.

[AK4]

D

[Deborah-Leigh]

It is human to judge. 

God is not a human.

God is not a person. L Ray Smith

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3702.msg27912.html#msg27912

"Good AND evil" were both in THE SAME FRUIT!! 

Good and evil are not two fruits. 

To become AS God is, IS to know good and evil. Gen 3 : 22 God can lay down His life and take it up again.

Good AND evil, co-exist as one fruit.

False appearances to the contrary,  can be deceiving! ~

Arc

[Gina]

It's true!  God is not "A" person.  God is a thing.  A family.  I guess once we're resurrected we're no longer human.  I hadn't really thought about that till now.  Another thread maybe, but if it is human to judge and God is not human, what then do we do with 1 Corinthians 6:1-3? 

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2 Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

And what happens at the resurrection to judgment?  Is God not planning on being there in the Day of the Lord?

[Deborah-Leigh]

And what happens at the resurrection to judgment? 

What happens at the resurrection to judgment IS THE SAME THING THAT IS HAPPENING TODAY  in the House of God NOW!


God judges two groups of human, by the SAME means (Ref LOF 5. A SPIRITUAL MATCH)

Is God not planning on being there in the Day of the Lord?

You can say, God is planning on being THERE in the Day of the Lord.


God can not, NOT be THERE.


God can not, not be HERE.


God is EVERYWHERE. God is NOT a person. God is SPIRIT.


God can NOT be no where. Show me where no where is! LOL. God is everywhere!


Not only is GOD everywhere, God is a Title for the one family that is God.


If you think you aren't under the title OF God, then fear not, the SON OF God, takes care of that in Jesus Christ who is EVERYTHING! (ref LOF V1 WHO IS THIS MAN, CHRIST)


EVERYONE is being judged by the SAME means.


EVERYTHING is Jesus Christ. (Ref LOF V1 WHO IS THIS MAN, THE CHRIST?)


God is not a thing. "God is Spirit."


Carnal  things, not yet spiritual,  are many things! There are many things of the world.


There are two groups of people that Ray identifies in LOF 5 Not everyone, is in the House of God now, judgment.   The entire world in the day of judging, is judged by the SAME MEANS! (Ref LOF V1)


EVERYONE'S title,  of the one Family that is God,  is Jesus Christ's. If not, then tell me what or who has God not given to His Son Jesus Christ. Show me. Tell me. Is not everything and everyone given to Christ? Of course YES!


If not then you are someone else, somewhere else, dreaming something else. LOL ~!


What happens at the resurrection to judgment IS THE SAME THING THAT IS HAPPENING TODAY  in the House of God NOW! God is everywhere and His Son is everything!

Arc

[acomplishedartis]

Repentance & Guilty of All . . . . . . . . Nashville Conference 2005

You know the scripture.

1Cor 6:2  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Don't you know we will judge the world and you can't even judge little things. You sue at the law, you sue your brothers at the law and so on, don't you know we will judge the world?
Well let me ask you if we are going to be judging the world one day, don't you think we ought to be practicing? They say, practice makes perfect, if we are going to do something.   

We are the Lake of Fire, we will be judging man and the angels. Don't you think we aught to have some practice at doing that then? Don't you think we should be learning to judge now?

Well, we go to Matt. 7 and we read this, "judge not." 

Mat 7:1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Is that a contradiction? "Know ye not that we shall judge the world and judge angels?"  "Judge not."  Jesus Christ says.

John 8:15, I judge no man. 

He is the righteous judge of the world, but "I judge no man."  And in John 12;

John 12:46  I have come as a Light into the world, so that whoever believes on Me should not remain in darkness.
v. 47  And if any one hears My Words and does not believe, I do not judge him, for I do not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

Well, how's He going to judge the world if He says, I don't judge any man? I didn't come to judge the world... and you should judge not. How does that fit? Does anybody have any ideas, are these contradictions?  Actually they are not.

As you judge... as you condemn...  That sometimes, the same word can be used with two slightly different connotations. Though judgment can mean to do good and to set right, it can also mean to render a sentence. Whatever you think you're going to render, it could be bad, because there's always two possible sentences to be rendered. Innocent and guilty, right? Judgment means to render a sentence. It has no bias as to which way it renders the sentence, it just means to render a sentence. It could be guilty and it could be innocent. But this verse does not stand alone.


                                THE BEAM THAT IS IN YOUR OWN EYE

Matt 7:1  Judge not, that you may not be judged.
v. 2  For with whatever judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again.
v. 3  And why do you behold the mote that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?

This is not a separate parable, this is a continuation of the first two verses. It's not talking about judging and judging not, and now it's talking about a beam or a speck in your eye. It's the same parable!

Continuation: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

[Deborah-Leigh]

Works of the world are good and evil.

Good AND evil co-exist in the same fruit.  A worldly work, can NOT be pure.

Works come under judgement, and are revealed by fire.

WORKS is what is judged.


1. "and the dead judged....ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS," ( Rev. 20:11)


2. "....they were judged every an ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS." (Rev. 20:13)http://bible-truths.com/lake5.html


......Scripture....speaks of the judgment of "every man's WORK......


1. "EVERY MAN'S WORK shall be made manifest.....L Ray Smith


Every thought, every word, and every deed that proceeds out of the heart and mind of man is his "WORKS." L Ray Smithhttp://bible-truths.com/lake6.html

There is ONE Earth, and seven billion worlds! Jesus has overcome the world AND ALL ITS WORKS.

Examine the metaphors.

Your Title is GOD.

Your Identity is Christ.

Fire burns everything else. ~ 


Arc

[Gina]

Okay, Thanks everyone.

Mods, Please lock this thread.  Thanks!