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Let us reason...
Gina:
Dave, thanks.
(Deviled eggs with a kick, you say? See now that's a true-blue deviled egg. he he)
I amazed by your reply... I also thought of the story of Joseph and his brothers as a spiritual match: they meant it for evil against Joseph, but God meant it for good for everyone involved. If they'd had things their way, they would have all starved, so God had to provoke them with a coat of many colors and favoritism. (Can't you just hear someone asking, Well, how come God didn't just give them food to eat and not cause a famine? Or why didn't God simply have the Pharaoh go hire Joseph and bring him and his whole family with him? Because that way, no one would have sinned, and no one would have had to have gotten put in a hard spot! See? ha ha I can see myself asking that too. Not judging. But by asking that we do completely away with the backdrop of evil which is necessary to show up the goodness and strength and power of God to work all together for good.) It's definitely a picture of something much grander. It's like, Order coming from chaos. Ray said:
God made the lemons and God changed the lemons into lemonade.
--- Quote ---God is the Potter and we are the clay. God first made the clay in His hands "marred/ruined"—LEMONS, before "…He made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it"—LEMONADE (Jer. 18:4).
Therefore, "For as in Adam ALL DIE [the marred, ruined clay—lemons] even so in Christ shall ALL [it’s the same ‘all’ as ‘in Adam’—it’s the SAME CLAY {Adam means ‘clay’}--lemons] BE MADE ALIVE [‘another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it’—LEMONADE]."
It is God Who makes both the lemons and the lemonade. God is in control of His creation from beginning to end:
From: The Lake of Fire - Part 15
--- End quote ---
It's also interesting to me to note just who Jehovah is speaking to:
10 Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah.
The rules were apparently pointed out here in verse 1:
The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
Anyway, thanks again for your input. We don't have to turn this into marathon post. I just thought it was wild, but the closer I look at the surrounding verses and following chapters, it's pretty clear what's being said. I just saw that and I zeroed in on those verses and I thought, Hey, that's not right... (think Jim Gaffigan lol)
Talk to you all later.
Rhys 🕊:
I think God is doing a great work in us beyond our comprehension and understanding. To turn our sins into snow and wool seems impossible to me especially when you see how stained you are. It's all God's work but we will all learn righteousness and God will be All in all as spoken by Ray below:
From: Was it better for Judas had he not been born?
CAN JUDAS BE FORGIVEN?
God inspired Isaiah to write:
"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool" (Isaiah 1:18).
Since God told the entire nation of Judah that their scarlet and crimson sins could be forgiven, who can stand in condemnation and forbid salvation to one single man, and a man whom we are told repented?
Where is there a sin that cannot and/or will not be forgiven? Do you believe there is a sin that will "NEVER" be forgiven? Do you think there is a Scripture that states such a thing? See my commentary on "The unpardonable sin."
The atonement of Jesus covers the sins of "the WHOLE WORLD" I John 2:2.
John the Baptist said: "Behold the Lamb that takes away THE SINS OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29). Yes, it will take God's Judgments to bring about the repentance of the whole world, but this is what God has prophesied:
"For when [not now, but 'when'] Thy Judgments are in the earth the inhabitants of the world [how many is that?] WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isaiah 9:26).
The forgiveness of the whole world is not as yet a fact, BUT IT WILL BE.
It seems to me that we are in a process phase of our sins being dealt with. I will let Ray best explain but another of his comments below:
As for your question on what happened to the sins that Jesus paid the penalty for? They are still alive and well on planet Earth. Jesus never "removed" the sins of the world. Rather, Jesus is "the propitiation for our sins and the sins of the whole world" (I John 2;2). Jesus DIED for our sins. But Jesus did not REMOVE the sins of the world. The salvation of humankind is a process. That's why we live our lives, and those who died ignorantly or as infants will be resurrected and live again. There is much they need to overcome.
John the Baptist said in John 1:29, "Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES away the sin of the world." It doesn't say he "took" away their sins, that he "will take" away their sin, but rather it is in the Greek aorist tens (indefinite--past, present, future)--"...The Lamb of God which IS TAKING away the sin of the world." "IS TAKING" is the proper translation. It is a process. As God cleanses us of our sin through His Holy spirit, our sins are BEING TAKEN away, but not so the rest of humanity which are presently either the "many called," or the NOT called.
God is perfect and is perfecting us with all of our baggage and everything else going on in our lives including our sins. Again I will let Ray take the next bit:
From LOF part 3
BECOMING PERFECT
Jesus Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS, and that accomplishes the SALVATION OF THE WHOLE WORLD, because God will eventually bring every creature in HEAVEN AND IN EARTH to repentance and humble submission to Jesus Christ (Phil. 2:9-11, Rom. 10:9, I Cor. 15:25). But forgiving sin, pardoning sin, justifying our sinful past, or even redeeming our bodies and giving us incorruptible and immortal bodies, does NOT make us perfect in deed and character!
God is PERFECT! And God wants His children to BE PERFECT! And believe it or not God WILL ... MAKE ... US ... PERFECT!
"He [God] chooses us in Him [Christ] before the disruption [foundation] of the world, we to be HOLY and FLAWLESS [PERFECT] in His sight..." (Eph. 1:4).
"You, then, shall be PERFECT as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Mat. 5:48).
"I in them, and Thou in Me, that they [that’s US] may be made PERFECT in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me" (John 17:23).
"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man PERFECT in Christ Jesus" (Col. 1:28).
People are quick to say, "Well, NOBODY is perfect." That's not true:
"For it became HIM, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many [that’s us and the rest of the world] sons unto glory, to make the CAPTAIN of their salvation PERFECT [how?] Through SUFFERING" (Heb. 2:10).
Yes, maybe no one but Christ is perfect now, but it won’t always be that way. Paul knew that it was a process and that it would be ultimately God’s achievement:
God is taking away our sins and finally dealing with them in a way that he only knows and knows is the best, and you know when God is finished with it, guess what it will look like – Snow. I would say that God is not taking our sins and getting rid of them but He is cleaning us through the suffering that we experience and when they are finally taken away then only whiteness remains. What else can be left when God has dealt with it in His perfect way.
From reading Ray's material that's how I see it. In my mind take a rotten apple and reverse back in time to a beautifully formed crisp yummy tasting apple and I guess that's what God is doing in His way.
Apologies if I am missing the mark here, it's just my contribution on how I see sins becoming snow.
God bless
Rhys
Gina:
That is a great reply. Thanks, Rhys.
Check this out:
1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent love among yourselves: for love shall cover a multitude of sins.
That blanket of love will make their sins white as snow (love is pure like snow).
That covering of love is like wool. Inasmuch as wool covers and warms, so does love.
That Peter 4:8 verse is basically saying what Jehovah is saying to the rulers and the people in Isaiah Chapter 1, where He was saying (I will paraphrase lol ), Hey party people, don't just pretend you love Me by bringing Me what amounts to trinkets and putting on a show or a display, but truly love each other and care for those less fortunate instead of taking advantage of them and/or ignoring their cries.
I love it. Thanks again Rhys and Dave for pointing me back to the Judas paper. That was a huge help.
Rhys 🕊:
Excellent verse there Gina, from Proverbs 10:12 I believe and wonderful to think that God's blanket of love is extending over All. Great to experience God's love now and love others with that love but also great to know that God's love will be experienced by those that don't yet know or care. Have had times in prayer when I have experienced God's love like you mentioned like a blanket of love. The only disappointing thing is I wish others would experience this but praise God one day all will. I guess all I can do now is love others and God will do His thing.
God bless
Rhys :)
Gina:
That's exactly the conclusion I drew too. We love others because it covers a multitude of sins, but then I woke up this morning with this verse on my mind:
Isaiah 26:10 Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
And Joseph didn't immediately show his brothers "favor" after what they did. First, they were judged (God got them to pretty much judged themselves [If you judge yourselves, you will not be condemned with the world] because they were scared when Joseph "found" the money in their satchels and then reflected back on how they left Joseph for dead --"This is all happening because we did such and such to Joseph...")
So, before our sins can become white as snow and like wool, we have to be brought to repentance through judgment (we have to be shaking in our boots), because niceties and favors before judgment have no effect on people -- we just keep on doing what we did before. (Isaiah 26:9 When thy judgments are in the earth the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness
)
Isaiah 26:12 LORD, you will ordain peace for us: for you also have done all our works in us.
And who better appreciates peace than someone who's been through war?
Cool. Thanks guys. :)
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