Jesus raised and the resurrection

se7en · December 10, 2012, 04:04:20 PM

Hiya all,

Been studying this particular topic recently. Samson posted a really good thread here http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12622.msg110729.html#msg110729 Where he was putting Ray's comments together and talking about it.

This is referring to the sheep and goats seperation it talks about in Matt 25:31-46.

Those that go into eonian chastisement.... Since they have been ressurected into their mortal bodies again, does this mean they will die... physically again? This is the second death?

The called out ones... the body of Christ, right now, currently is being judged, and this is our second death, then we die physically. And then resurrected into our spiritual glorified body.

But for those that do not believe, they die physically first, then get ressurected into a physical body to go through eonian chastisement and die a second time.... physically?

I just want to make sure i'm understanding. I appreciate you guys!

Kat · December 10, 2012, 05:59:03 PM

Hi se7en,

QuoteBut for those that do not believe, they die physically first, then get resurrected into a physical body to go through eonian chastisement and die a second time.... physically?

No, there is only "once" to have a physical death and then the resurrection of the dead and "judgment" and give an accounting of all then have done in their life.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,

The people that are in the first resurrection have died to self through judgment, as you said, but the rest of mankind have not and after the resurrection from the dead must still go through this judgment - the second death, which is a 'spiritual' death, a death to self.

This is from the article 16 E. 'Hades and the Second Death.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm -----------------------------------------------

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened, and another book was opened which is the books of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their WORKS" (Rev. 20:12).

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).

When the "dead... stand," we are being presented with a resurrection from the dead. For this is exactly what resurrection means (anastasis in Greek means, "to stand up again"--See Strong's #386 translated 'resurrection'). It is in resurrection that "the dead... stand" before God. And yes, since we know Revelation is a book of spiritual symbols, we would be correct in stating that it is "the SPIRITUALLY dead" who are standing before God. Aspects of this Judgment:

[1] "the dead, small and great stand [resurrected] before God"

[2] they are judged according to the books, according to their works

[3] "the sea [the sea of wicked humanity] give up its [spiritually] dead"

[4] this includes "every man" [Gk: 'each one or 'every one' or 'every person']

[5] "death [the cause] and hell [the realm] are cast into the lake of fire"

[6] and those "not found in the Book of Life were cast into the Lake of Fire"

[7] this "Lake of Fire is the Second Death"

The Christian orthodox teaching on the "Last Judgment" is a pagan fabrication which has been deceiving Christians by the billions for two thousands years. We will now look closer at just what this lake of fire/second death is all about.

As we have said many times, there is Judgment for both the chosen Elect now and the unbelieving wicked in the resurrection to Judgment:

"For if we would judge ourselves [now, in this life], we should not be judged [with the world later]. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [judged] with the world [at the resurrection to Judgment]" (I Cor. 11:31-32).

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" (I Pet. 4:17-18).

Well we see where they appear in Paul's statement that they will be "...condemned [judged] with the world."

And this is at the Great White Throne Judgment in the resurrection to Judgment, in the lake of fire/second death.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

se7en · December 11, 2012, 12:14:48 PM

Thanks Kat! That is was a spiritual death of self is exactly what I was thinking but I wanted to make sure.

To inlcude the thread that Samson had posted http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12622.msg110729.html#msg110729

Let me know if i'm picturing this accurately....

When Jesus comes back, the church gets resurrected. Some with spiritual glorified bodies (the sheep) others with physical bodies (goats). What happens to the physical bodies of the goats once they've gone through the spiritual fire? Will their physical bodies die again? And then they get resurrected with all the unbelievers at the consumation in their spiritual bodies?

Or is it like this....

when Jesus comes back, the church gets vivified into spiritualy glorified bodies, everyone else just "stands up" into regular physical bodies for eonian chastisement. Once they've learned righteiousness, their physical bodies will die...again? And they get vivified at the consumation?

Or was that the discussion of the thread, to figure that part out? Thanks everyone!

se7en · December 11, 2012, 12:21:31 PM

I'm starting to remember the article where Ray was talking about the feasts. the firstfruit, christ's vivication which has already happened. Then the church during the second vivication. and Everyone else gets vivified at the consumation.

Does this mean that "everyone else" will not wake up in a physical body again, they stay dead until vivified at the consumation? If that's the case. When would they have gotten the chance to be judged and taught rightiousness?

Kat · December 11, 2012, 03:33:56 PM

Hi se7en,

My understanding is that when Christ returns His church (not the entire Christian church) - the chosen/elect/sheep will be resurrected and vivified to glorious spiritual bodies and meet Christ in the air, first the dead then those still alive immediately after.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
v.17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The rest of the dead, which include the Christian church - Babylon and all other faiths and atheists and babies, everybody not in the first resurrection, these are the goats. They will be resurrected back to physical life. Now how exactly that resurrection transpires is not revealed, will they just appear on earth, don't know.

QuoteWhat happens to the physical bodies of the goats once they've gone through the spiritual fire?

The Scripture speaks of "once to die" (Heb 9:27), so I can't see them having to die a physical death again, spiritual second death, yes, but not physically. If you think how it happens with the elect that are still alive when Christ returns, that might give us an idea of how it could happen in the next age as well.

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

There will be a "change" that will take place, those alive physically will go from physical to spiritual "in the twinkling of an eye." So it seems like a rather instantaneous transformation. So will that happen in the next age as each person reach a certain degree of readiness or all together at the end, when God is All in all? Don't know.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Seeker · December 12, 2012, 12:05:55 AM

Quote from: Kat on December 11, 2012, 03:33:56 PM

Hi se7en,

My understanding is that when Christ returns His church (not the entire Christian church) - the chosen/elect/sheep will be resurrected and vivified to glorious spiritual bodies and meet Christ in the air, first the dead then those still alive immediately after.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
v.17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Hi Kit Kat
I couldn't believe that the above comes from you, you were my next best inspiration after Ray, quoting his teachings to all over the many years, please see teachings from Ray, subject: Exposing the secret rapture.

RAPTURE OF THE WICKED

Notice that our Lord instructs us that "as the days of Noah, thus shall it be." Okay then, how was it in the days of Noah? Who was "left" and who was "taken away?"

"For as they were in those days before the deluge, eating and drinking and marrying and taking in marriage until the day on which Noah entered into the ark, and did not know till the deluge came and takes them all AWAY, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind" (Mat. 24:38-39).

Did you catch that? It was all the wicked who were eating, drinking, and marrying that were "TAKEN AWAY," not Noah and his family!

And so here we have a principle that is used throughout the entire Bible--the good are left and the bad are taken away. Immediately after verse 39 where the wicked are "taken," we have verse 40 which says, "Then two shall be in the field; one [wicked] is taken along and one left: two grinding at the millstone; one [wicked] is taken along and one left."

For further conformation of this look at the parable of the wheat and the tares. You all know the parable, so I won't repeat all of it. Just notice that the tares

"are gathered and burned in the fire" (Mat. 13:40).

And

"they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend ..." (Ver 41).

So the tares are gathered out and burned and the wheat is left behind.

Notice Romans 8:33, "... God's elect," Col. 3:12, "... the elect of God ..." Titus 1:1, "... God;s elect ..." Now look at Mat. 24:22, "Yet because of the elect [chosen], those days shall be shortened." Therefore, the "elect" or chosen ones have not been raptured away, but rather left, or God wouldn't have to shorten the days of tribulation for the sake of the "elect."

Didn't our Lord clearly pray to His Father, "I am not asking that Thou shouldst be taking them AWAY OUT OF THE WORLD, but that Thou shouldst be keeping them from the wicked one" (John 17:15)?

One more,

"Again the Kingdom of heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea [multitudes of people, Rev. 17:15] and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire ..." (Mat. 13:47-50).

Clearly the good are retained and kept, but the bad are severed and taken away! If ever there is to be a rapture, it will be A RAPTURE OF THE WICKED, not of the saints!

Now a few Scriptures to show that it was always God's intention that the righteous remain on this earth:

"The righteous shall never be REMOVED [or raptured]; and the wicked shall not inherit the earth" (Prove. 10:30).

"The righteous shall be recompensed in the EARTH [not raptured to heaven]" (Prov. 11:31).

"Take AWAY the dross from the silver ... Take AWAY the wicked from the King ..." (Prov. 25:4-5).

"They [the wicked] are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY " (Job 21:18).

"... take hold of the ends of the earth that the wicked might be shaken OUT of it" (John 38:13).

And finally, "... REMOVING those things that are shaken [the wicked] ... that those things that cannot be shaken [the righteous] may REMAIN ... accepting an unshakable kingdom ..." (Heb. 12:27-28).

Jesus said He was going to His Father IN HEAVEN to prepare a place for His apostles. Peter said that Christ,

"... regenerates us into a living expectation, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead, for the enjoyment of an allotment incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, KEPT IN THE HEAVENS FOR YOU ..." (I Pet. 1:4-5).

And yet we know that Christ brings these treasures BACK TO EARTH.

Why do we think it is any different for the Gentiles? It is not different.

"... we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, IN THE HEAVENS." (II Cor. 5:1).

But are we unlike the Jews in that we really GO to heaven to receive our treasures? NO! Next verse: "For in this also we are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is OUT of heaven ..."

There are so many Scriptures like this that contradict the rapture theory. Look at this one,

"The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's; but the EARTH hath He given to the children of men" (Psalm 115:6). One more, "... for we are your glorying (even as you also are ours) in THE DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS" (II Cor. 1:14).

Not in the "rapture," but in "the day of our Lord."

I seriously doubt whether anyone could prove to us that the place where God dwells, "heaven," is actually a specific geographical location so many light years from the earth on some galactic rock in outer space. In the same way "eternity" is not "a very long time." They are both a condition or a realm. God is in us, while He is in Heaven, while He is also simultaneously, EVERYWHERE!

Since, "... we shall be judging messengers ..." Is it logical to conclude that we will need space worthy bodies to travel among the galaxies of outer space? Maybe we should ask whether messengers really reside millions of light years from earth on the rocks and planets of outer space.

FROM WHERE DO WE JUDGE?

"Or are you not aware that the saints shall judge THE WORLD? And if the world is being judged by you, are you unworthy of the least tribunals? Are you not aware that we shall be judging MESSENGERS, not to mention life's affairs?" Notice that the same "you" and "we" are to judge the "world" AND "messengers." And the judging of messengers is linked with judging "life's affairs." "Life's affairs is not something going on in OUTER SPACE! Life's affairs are things on the earth, which is the same location at which we will be "judging messengers!" And these two judgments are not separated by thousands of years.

I have never gone into outer space, however, guess what? I have and still do wrestle creatures among the celestials! "... for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world mights of this darkness, with spiritual forces of wickedness AMONG THE CELESTIALS" (Eph. 6:12)! Now think for a moment, if we can right here and now, from the earth, wrestle with creatures among the celestials, why can't we also judge and instruct them as well, FROM THE EARTH?

When Christ returns to set up His kingdom on earth, He brings the place of authority or rulership that He has prepared for the apostles with Him so that "... where I am, YOU ALSO MAY BE" (John 14:3). During Christ's reign on earth His apostles will be WITH THE LORD. Now notice I Thes. 4:17 where it is stated that when Christ returns to the Gentile saints "... thus shall we always be together WITH THE LORD ..." We also will be with the Lord on the earth, not in outer space.

Below is a chart of six Scriptural references showing six categories of events with regards to Christ's return. It is the second and fourth references that rapturists claim are descriptions of a secret rapture, while the first, third, fifth and sixth are supposedly a later and different event. Irrespective of similarities, we are told that it is "The differences that make them different." But we have shown conclusively that these differences do no constitute contradictions--only additions or omissions of information.

If we study the chart for a few minutes we are struck with the similarity of events described. Although the second and fourth references are claimed to be the secret rapture, there is really no apparent reason to select these two references as being the same event but definitely different from the others.

None of the references are exactly alike, but seriously, can't we see that the second reference (I Thes. 4) has more categories in common with the first reference (Mat. 24) and the third reference (I Thes 1) than it does with the fourth reference (I Cor. 15). Yet, rapturists reject Matthew 24 and I Thessalonians 1 as being the same even as I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15.

There are, of course, dozens of other Scriptures that also speak of Christ's return to this earth to set up His kingdom, but most of them do not have as many detained events mentioned as do these six references.

I think it should becoming clear by now that not only is there no evidence in the letter to support a secret rapture prior to Christ's return to His saints, but there is also no evidence to support a Scriptural division among the saints that would call for such a rapture either.

You still inspire me though.

Kat · December 12, 2012, 10:07:57 AM

Hi Seeker,

I'm glad to see I inspired you to join in, welcome to the forum

I can see what you are saying in the 'Rapture' article and your point is well taken. In Ray's 'Rapture" article he was trying to explain that the elect were not going to be 'raptured' away off to 'heaven' somewhere with Christ and I agree with that totally. My comments were directed at the difference between the spiritual resurrection and the physical resurrection. Is the resurrection of the just and the unjust (Act 24:15) at the same time or separted to some degree, don't know. But I know that it says the elect will be in the "first" resurrection (Rev 20:6) and that to me indicates before the rest.

Now I do know that Ray taught that the elect would actually be the Lake of Fire and rule with Jesus Christ on earth and that the rest of humanity would be resurrected and would be cast in that lake on earth. I can only draw the assumption that the Lake is already there before they can be cast into it...

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html ----------------------------------

"For the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waits for THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD. For the creature [creation] was MADE subject to VANITY ['...surely, EVERY MAN IS VANITY'-- Psalm 39:11], NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [GOD] Who has subjected the same in HOPE. Because the creature [creation] itself also shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption [corruption includes DEATH] into THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN together until now" (Rom. 8:19-22).

WOW! Let me point out a few marvelous things in this verse. Notice the chronological order of things in this Scripture and see how it contradicts the terrible teaching of orthodox doctrine:

First the Sons of God are manifested or shown to be what they really are—SPIRITUAL SONS OF GOD (and DAUGHTERS—II Cor. 6:18)! No longer flesh and blood. No longer subject to the pulls of a carnal mind, but True Sons in the very IMAGE OF GOD and His Son, Jesus Christ.

But what happens next? What happens to all the rest of humanity who are not sons and daughters and are not saved?
v
v
GOD'S MINISTERS ARE FLAMES OF FIRE

I showed you earlier that Jesus Christ is not only IN the lake of fire, He IS THE LAKE OF FIRE. He is the Divinity in this spiritual fire.

Ponder this:

Like Christ, we too are raised with a "SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:44).

We are in fact called, "the BODY of Christ" (Eph. 1:23).

We will literally "be LIKE Him [Christ]" (I John 3:2).

God will make us into "ministers [of] FLAMING FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).

We too then will be like our God, "a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

God promises us that, "...the saints shall JUDGE THE WORLD..." and "we shall JUDGE ANGELS" (I Cor. 6:2-3)!

God tells us WHERE this judgment will take place:

"...they were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).

Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!

THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!

The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christ's divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).

And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.

"Know ye not that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?"

And so, the GREAT SEA OF HUMANITY will be judged in the safety and security of the LAKE OF SAINTS!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

se7en · December 16, 2012, 05:35:44 AM

Kat,

Awesome, awesome! That is exactly what I was looking for. thank you so very much!

So the elect/chosen/body of Christ get vivified. Then sometime during the next two ages (we are not sure when), everyone else will just "stand up" in regular bodies to be judged and learn righteousness. Once they learn and understand, die to self (the second death) then in a "twinkling of an eye" they are vivified in glorious spiritual bodies as well.

I can see that.