It seems that some members of this forum are bored – so let’s get this thread back on track.
Dave in Tenn, thank you for attempting to understand and to answer one of my questions. Please read the following slowly and carefully.
And so too, this wild beast that comes up out of the sea is the beast IS (at the time John
wrote of it), WAS (before it was introduced to John), AND WILL BE (down through the
centuries until our time and beyond until the consummation of this age).
And now ye know what withholds [is restraining, is detaining—‘the falling away FIRST’] that he
[‘the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition’—YOU…] might be revealed in his time [in YOU
and TO YOU—individually, not collectively] in his time [‘his {particular} time’]—FOR YOU and FOR
ME and for ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL GENERATIONS UNTIL JESUS COMES TO US ALL,
COLLECTIVELY, AS THE MANIFEST SONS OF GOD]."
Yes I agree that Ray says that the
revealing of the man of sin is an "Is, Was, and Will be". The quotes above say that, we both agree that Ray says that, and in my first post I said that Ray says that.
In reference to the second quote above:
According to Ray (and to common sense) this
revealing is something that happens to us “individually, not collectively” and this is because believers have been alive at different times in different generations and the revealing is at their particular time. The
revealing of the man of sin is therefore logically (and also Scripturally), an "Is, Was, and Will be".
According to Ray the
revealing happens for each of us in each of our times ("Is, Was, and Will be") UNTIL, the "until" denoting a future event, the future event being Jesus coming “to us all collectively” (not to us individually). If I have understood correctly, "collectively" means: to all of us at the same time, this reinforcing the future aspect.
We know that according to Scripture the
destroying of the man of sin can only occur at the coming of Jesus. This coming is described in 2 Thessalonians 2:8, the KJV refers to "the brightness of his coming", and so this coming is a coming that is, or appears to be, very noticeable to those who see it. This coming according to Ray is an event that happens “to us all collectively” and is a future event. Thus according to Ray the
destroying (as opposed to the
revealing) of the man of sin must also be a future event, and therefore a "Will be" as well, not an "Is, Was, and Will be".
The link that was posted by John from Kentucky does not negate the above argument.
However those in the early church were taught to wait for Jesus in their lifetimes, and were told that He would come after they (the singular "ye" is used) had done the will of God.
So to me there appears to be a contradiction between the teaching of Ray and the teaching of Scripture. But then perhaps I have not understood the Scripture and/or the teaching of Ray, and that is why I have asked questions.
Why according to Ray is it not possible that the coming of Jesus to destroy the man of sin be an "Is, Was, and Will be"? Why is it not possible for us, those who faithfully undergo tribulation, and who walk the narrow way to the end, unto Life, expect Jesus to come in our lifetimes, INDIVIDUALLY, before we physically die, to destroy the man of sin? Were those in the early church taught to expect that? Were those in the early church taught to expect Jesus to come in their lifetimes? If so, should we be watching and waiting and expecting the same thing? And what will we see when we see Jesus come? Is it a faith thing, or is it an experiential thing? When we find, and the door is opened, and we receive, is this a faith thing? Or is it the seeking that is done by faith, but the finding is experiential? When you find, how would you know that you had found, unless you actually found something or Someone? When the man of sin is revealed, he is actually revealed. To be counted as born again, is it enough to have a testimony of the revealing of the man of sin, but not have a testimony of the coming of Jesus to destroy that man of sin?
Do we dare be happy to wait until we die physically, to see what will happen? If we die (physically), and the man of sin has not been destroyed, then will we see Jesus come to our shame? Is that how He appears to us at a time that we least expect?
Those who are born again (John 3:3): know (ginōskō (know intimately)) the Truth (John 8:31-32) and are known (ginōskō) by Jesus (Matthew 7:23, John 10:27), know (ginōskō) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He sent (John 17:3), have been made free (John 8:31-32), made free indeed (John 8:36), have received a new heart and entered into the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:10-12, Jeremiah 31:31, 33-34, Ezekiel 36:26-27, Ezekiel 11:16-20, Ezekiel 18:31-32), have received the promise (Hebrews 10:36), Jesus has manifested Himself to them (John 14:21), they have seen the Son (John 6:40), have found, have had the door opened, have received (Matthew 7:7, Luke 11:9), have been invited from the lowest room (Luke 14:10), sup with Jesus and he with them (Revelation 3:20), have the Son (1 John 5:12), shall not need anyone to teach them (Hebrews 8:11), have overcome (Revelation chapters 2-3), have endured much tribulation to enter the Kingdom of God (Acts 14:22), and have walked the narrow way to Life (Matthew 7:14). (I am not saying that this is a complete list).
Is it possible for these things to be fulfilled before our physical death?
Is it possible to be born again, receive a new heart, and enter into the new covenant, if the man of sin has not been destroyed?
My questions remain:
Why does Ray say that the coming of Jesus to
destroy the man of sin (I’m not referring to the revealing of the man of sin) is a future event, and therefore not an "Is, Was, and Will be"?
Why were believers in the early church clearly commanded to wait for the coming of Jesus, and why did Jesus Himself command each and every believer to watch?
Thanks again for your help
Oatmeal
To forum members:
When posting on this thread please keep to relevant subject matter and try to refrain from idle chatter. No apologies needed.