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Author Topic: Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.  (Read 9791 times)

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nightmare sasuke

  • Guest
Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« on: March 22, 2006, 03:29:42 AM »

From the very beginning, man was born into the law:

Gen 2:16 And instructing is Yahweh Elohim the human, saying, "From every tree of the garden, you are to eat, yea, eat.
Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying [because it would defy the law, the rule, which Yahweh defined].

Merriam-Webster defines law thus: “A binding custom or practice of a community … a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority [in this case, Yahweh] … a rule of construction or procedure.?

Merriam-Webster, moreover, defines rule as: “a prescribed guide for conduct or action …?

Yahweh’s commandment advising Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of good and evil was a rule, a law. Thus, Adam and Eve—created from corruptible dust in the form of nakedness (sin)—were born into the law.

What does Paul have to say about laws, and rules?

Rom 4:15 for the law is producing indignation. Now where no law is, neither is there transgression.?

Adam and Eve were never “perfect,? for they were under the law in the beginning, and where the law is, transgression lurks also; if you know law, you know sin; if you know good then you know evil (thus why the fruits of good and evil are produced from one tree).
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Thedistance

  • Guest
Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2006, 03:49:35 AM »

That rocks Nightmare!!  8)
Peace to you in CHrist,
Erich
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broken

  • Guest
Re: Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2006, 11:08:01 AM »

Quote from: nightmare sasuke
From the very beginning, man was born into the law:

Gen 2:16 And instructing is Yahweh Elohim the human, saying, "From every tree of the garden, you are to eat, yea, eat.
Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying [because it would defy the law, the rule, which Yahweh defined].

Merriam-Webster defines law thus: “A binding custom or practice of a community … a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority [in this case, Yahweh] … a rule of construction or procedure.?

Merriam-Webster, moreover, defines rule as: “a prescribed guide for conduct or action …?

Yahweh’s commandment advising Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of good and evil was a rule, a law. Thus, Adam and Eve—created from corruptible dust in the form of nakedness (sin)—were born into the law.

What does Paul have to say about laws, and rules?

Rom 4:15 for the law is producing indignation. Now where no law is, neither is there transgression.?

Adam and Eve were never “perfect,? for they were under the law in the beginning, and where the law is, transgression lurks also; if you know law, you know sin; if you know good then you know evil (thus why the fruits of good and evil are produced from one tree).


That's pretty poor exegesis.

I must ask a question before commenting further...

1. Did God originally create any imperfect being?
2. How can Jesus be described as the "second Adam" if Adam was created sinful?

Brandon
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jerry cabral

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widsom
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2006, 12:00:43 PM »

Boy,  All that from a couple of verses,  one question, if they were naked and were not ashamed so are you saying that they were not ashamed of sin  and I cant seem to read were he says that the dust of curruptable.
Well I guess the children of man or children of men seems to alway put the cart before the horse.   Now some say that to be with God one needs to be purified, for you have to be pure to be in the presents of God I dont know but they hanged with him.   Good justifing ones inperfection like a teenager saying well my parents wernt perfect, thats why.  Sin was introduced to perfection, not perfection introducef to sin.  But if you really want to know what happend in the Garden I would say one could study the Song of Solomon, and a little in Job.

Peace be with You.
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nightmare sasuke

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Re: Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2006, 02:29:43 PM »

Quote from: broken
Quote from: nightmare sasuke
From the very beginning, man was born into the law:

Gen 2:16 And instructing is Yahweh Elohim the human, saying, "From every tree of the garden, you are to eat, yea, eat.
Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying [because it would defy the law, the rule, which Yahweh defined].

Merriam-Webster defines law thus: “A binding custom or practice of a community … a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority [in this case, Yahweh] … a rule of construction or procedure.?

Merriam-Webster, moreover, defines rule as: “a prescribed guide for conduct or action …?

Yahweh’s commandment advising Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of good and evil was a rule, a law. Thus, Adam and Eve—created from corruptible dust in the form of nakedness (sin)—were born into the law.

What does Paul have to say about laws, and rules?

Rom 4:15 for the law is producing indignation. Now where no law is, neither is there transgression.?

Adam and Eve were never “perfect,? for they were under the law in the beginning, and where the law is, transgression lurks also; if you know law, you know sin; if you know good then you know evil (thus why the fruits of good and evil are produced from one tree).


That's pretty poor exegesis.

I must ask a question before commenting further...

1. Did God originally create any imperfect being?
2. How can Jesus be described as the "second Adam" if Adam was created sinful?

Brandon


1. “1. Did God originally create any imperfect being?? From our human-like standpoint, why, yes he did--Satan:

Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (KJV).

Some people foolishly believe Satan was once Lucifer (a word, which is not in the Hebrew manuscripts) However, if Satan had "free will," he WOULD CONTAIN TRUTH, he just would not be choosing to embrace it. To choose between good and evil, you must first have some good in you, but Satan HAS NO TRUTH (good) IN HIM, so he couldn't have chose even if he wanted to. By the way, Jesus said "murderer from the beginning," and not "became a murderer after he, with his God-will-defying free will, chose to be evil even though he had no reason to."

By the way, God created Satan FOR A PURPOSE:

Isa 54:16  Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy" (KJV).

2. "How can Jesus be described as the "second Adam" if Adam was created sinful?" What do you mean? Christ was born into the flesh, naked, in a corruptible body, BUT HE OVERCAME IT, because he is the Son of God; Christ had to overcome his flesh, to fulfill God's will, and the prophecies, just like Adam had to sin in his body, to fulfill God's will.

Do you mean to suggest God wanted Adam and Eve to live in natural bodies for the rest of their lives? I DO NOT THINK SO! It was always God’s plan for us to be “sown a natural body; [and be] raised a spiritual body? (1Co 15:44).
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2006, 04:36:03 PM »

Laren, don't we come into contact daily with those who are "alive in the flesh" who have no internal "warring"? They are at peace with the beast? I believe Mike was being literal where Paul's statement is spiritual. Remember flesh will not inherit the Kingdom of God, so Adam was predestined to die, it is part of his and our ongoing "creation" spiritually into sons of God. I think Paul explains this in more detail later in the chapter.




Rom 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Joe
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roperfam

  • Guest
Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2006, 04:53:51 PM »

Quote from: hillsbororiver
Laren, don't we come into contact daily with those who are "alive in the flesh" who have no internal "warring"? They are at peace with the beast? I believe Mike was being literal where Paul's statement is spiritual. Remember flesh will not inherit the Kingdom of God, so Adam was predestined to die, it is part of his and our ongoing "creation" spiritually into sons of God. I think Paul explains this in more detail later in the chapter.




Rom 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Joe


Interesting way to look at it, "alive in the flesh".  no internal warring, at peace with the beast".  Seems like a good explanation at this time, I'll do more thinking.  Thanks.
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jerry cabral

  • Guest
They had to
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2006, 06:49:31 PM »

I understand Adam and Eve had to be unperfect and they had to have lust in there heart along with disobiendient.  I mean like ray says the major doctrine is wrong, i mean they have to be.  I mean they dont have a clue.  I mean anyone else in the garden would of done the same thing.  They have to be wrong for me to be right.  Is that the rational.  My question if why a Son of God in which Adam is would do that.  If all would strive with the common thread that All religions basiclly believe in the same Father,Supreme Being, Alla, Most High.  The Major Churchs are right along with anyone who knows Jesus the Christ is the Beloved Son of the Most High His Father, the only Creator there is.  I still say in the Song of Solomon and Job is were what happen in that Garden is plus alot more.


Peace be with You.
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rvhill

  • Guest
Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2006, 08:08:19 PM »

A couple of points here. It true Adam was not perfect, but the Original Sin  is Satan's.  The Original sin is Pride.

Genesis 3:4But the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die,(B)
    5For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing the difference between good and evil and blessing and calamity.


Also the woman was Adam, and she was not named Eve until after they had both eaten of the tree, and been confronted by God.
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Alan

  • Guest
Re: They had to
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2006, 08:17:04 PM »

Quote from: jerry cabral
My question if why a Son of God in which Adam is would do that.


Adam was marred clay in the Potter's hands, just as we all are.
(Jer 18:4-6....Rom 8:20)

He had to eat from the tree. It wasn't some fabled free will choice.
(Eph 1:11)

22     ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and live for ever:

It doesn't say that Adam chose to become one of us!

Those that are called will eat, or are still eating of that tree.  (drinking...Milk of the Word, or another Jesus)
(2 Cor 11:4)

The law of Moses is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The chosen have eaten from the tree and are now eating spiritual food. (MEAT....the doctrines of Christ)
(Heb 5&6....2 John 9)

Peace,

Alan
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hillsbororiver

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Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2006, 09:01:12 PM »

Quote from: roperfam
Quote from: hillsbororiver
Laren, don't we come into contact daily with those who are "alive in the flesh" who have no internal "warring"? They are at peace with the beast? I believe Mike was being literal where Paul's statement is spiritual. Remember flesh will not inherit the Kingdom of God, so Adam was predestined to die, it is part of his and our ongoing "creation" spiritually into sons of God. I think Paul explains this in more detail later in the chapter.




Rom 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Joe


Interesting way to look at it, "alive in the flesh".  no internal warring, at peace with the beast".  Seems like a good explanation at this time, I'll do more thinking.  Thanks.



Hello again Laren, the way I understand it until the conversion process begins there isn't a warring with the flesh (it is not dying daily), it is embraced and glorified as getting in touch with your inner self or as enhancing your self esteem and the beast is fed with only the very best that can be afforded by carnal man.

Churches teach that puny man (the beast) can thwart God's will and force Him into a "plan B" (Jesus death & resurrection) with only man (the beast) being in control of the destiny of mankind, God's attempt at creating perfect creatures failed miserably the first two attempts He made, first with satan then with man. Not only can't this god create perfection on his first try but needs man to give his beastly consent. To me this is the height of audacity and self centered delusion, which we all must pass through to some degree and at some point.

Now schools are instructing children in self esteem, before they have even accomplished anything worthwhile, like anyone needs instruction in self centeredness or selfishness (the flesh is alive!), I have seen many products of this philosophy entering the workforce where respect is seen as an entitlement and not earned. The beast is becoming even larger and more ferocious as time moves forward.

Joe
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broken

  • Guest
Re: They had to
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2006, 01:08:02 AM »

Quote from: jerry cabral
I understand Adam and Eve had to be unperfect and they had to have lust in there heart along with disobiendient.  I mean like ray says the major doctrine is wrong, i mean they have to be.  I mean they dont have a clue.  I mean anyone else in the garden would of done the same thing.  They have to be wrong for me to be right.  Is that the rational.  My question if why a Son of God in which Adam is would do that.  If all would strive with the common thread that All religions basiclly believe in the same Father,Supreme Being, Alla, Most High.  The Major Churchs are right along with anyone who knows Jesus the Christ is the Beloved Son of the Most High His Father, the only Creator there is.  I still say in the Song of Solomon and Job is were what happen in that Garden is plus alot more.


Peace be with You.


What do you mean by that last sentence?

I don't understand at all how you could see the garden in the Song of Solomon?

Brandon
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broken

  • Guest
Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2006, 01:53:52 AM »

I need to understand the general conception regarding the reason that Adam and Eve could not possibly be created perfect.  Here's the concise version of what I'm hearing:

If it was in God's plan that Adam and Eve live in sin, then they could not possibly have been created perfect or else the Tree of Life would not be tempting to them, for temptation only occurs in the carnal mind (carnal is a word that tends to be overabused and misunderstood on this board also, but that's another discussion).  

Am I right in my assessment?

Brandon
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rvhill

  • Guest
Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2006, 02:44:31 AM »

Quote from: broken
I need to understand the general conception regarding the reason that Adam and Eve could not possibly be created perfect.  Here's the concise version of what I'm hearing:

If it was in God's plan that Adam and Eve live in sin, then they could not possibly have been created perfect or else the Tree of Life would not be tempting to them, for temptation only occurs in the carnal mind (carnal is a word that tends to be overabused and misunderstood on this board also, but that's another discussion).  

Am I right in my assessment?

Brandon


The two Adams were both made innocent, and they had no shame. It does not say they were perfect.
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Dan

  • Guest
Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2006, 03:17:03 AM »

The Fathers perfect Plan

In order for growth and maturity to take place, there must be an opposing force that resists or contradicts its opposite.  For example, a muscle in the human body cannot grow unless there is a resistance or force applied to that muscle.  This resistance first weakens the muscle actually breaking it down; however, with rest and proper nutrition, the muscle grows bigger and stronger.  A child cannot understand what cold is until they touch something that is hot--they learn and become wiser by experiencing the opposite.  Applying this to the spiritual, good cannot truly be understood until the effects of evil are seen and experienced.  Obedience means nothing to us, until we see the results of disobedience.  We cannot understand the holiness of God until we see the ravages and effects of hatred and selfishness in our lives and in the world around us.  This is the “Law of Opposites? and it is the learning process that God has ordained for us.  All we need to do is look at our own experiences to see if this is true.  Does not a sunrise give us a great sense of peace and security only because we have experienced the loneliness and fear of the night?  Can anyone really appreciate the joys of life until we have tasted the sorrows of death?  Do we not appreciate the sweetness of His grace only because the law first condemned us?  Is not the Cross of Christ embraced by us because we were first separated from God by our own sin?  We must experience the evil in order to appreciate the good!  
 
  When Adam gained the knowledge of good and evil, he gained resistance that would also grow him up.  You can only build muscle by repetitive motion against resistance.  Adam was innocent and immature.  He now could experience the power of love against the power of evil.  He now had something to “overcome.?  He would find that he could only be an “overcomer? by the infinite mercy of God found in Jesus Christ.  In this, he would have the experience of knowing the love his Creator had for him, by the depth He would go to save and restore him. He could also build spiritual muscle by carrying the disciple’s cross.  This is why Paul cries out in Rom. 11:33, “Oh the depth of the riches of both the wisdom and knowledge of God!? What a master plan!
 
Adam was created in the image of God, but that does not mean he possessed the knowledge of his Creator.  A child is created in the image of his or her parents, but that doesn’t mean they are exactly like them.  They may look like them and have some of the same mannerisms, but they do not possess the same knowledge and wisdom that their parents do.  Parents cannot pass those things onto their children at birth.  While children certainly inherit physical traits from their parents, the knowledge of good and evil is not one of them.  This has to come through a long process whereby their offspring learn by their own trials and experiences—their own triumphs and failures.  It was no different with Adam and Eve.  God had a plan for Adam (man) that would involve a long process of struggle (good versus evil) in order for him (mankind) to be brought into full maturity (sonship).
 
God made a tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  He made it pleasing to look at.  He didn’t place it in some remote place in the garden, but right in the center of man’s reach.  There was no fence around it, nor were there cherubs with a flaming sword to guard it (until after Adam sinned).  On top of all that, God allowed a tempter in the garden to be an adversary to Adam.

God created man and as owner of man, He holds Himself ultimately responsible.  God’s own law (which He cannot violate) proves this.  In Exodus 21:33-34, God gives laws for landowners.  If a landowner digs a pit on his own land and fails to cover it up, and an animal falls in and dies , the owner of the land shall make restitution to the animal’s owner.  The landowner then gets the rights to the dead animal (all souls belong to Him—Ez. 18:4).
 
So God made a pit in the garden (the tree) and failed to cover it up.  Adam, unable to discern the difference between good and evil because of ignorance, fell into the pit by eating of the tree.  So in accordance with God's very own law, He was responsible to make it right—and make it right He did!  God’s restitution to man was none other than the blood of His own dear Son, and in this way He provided the only avenue of escape from this pit of death.  As Creator of man, “all souls belong to Him,? and so God, being the owner of all that is in the world did the only thing a responsible owner could do—take the responsibility of restoration upon His own shoulders.  

God’s responsibility as landowner is ultimately greater than the choices of men, and because of this, God sent His only Son to reverse the damage that had been caused by Adam.  
 
As in Adam, all die, so in Christ, all shall be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:22)  


If God holds us personally responsible for Adam’s sin, then God is guilty of the biggest injustice in the history of the world.  First, He sets up a chessboard that is impossible to overcome (the tree, the seductive beauty of it, and the tempter), and then as a result of Adam’s inevitable choice, He declares that most of His creatures will be lost forever.  My dear friends, this goes against the very nature of God as love, His power to save all, and His ultimate responsibility to fix (not just provide a way) for man’s confused and lost state.  According to modern theology, Christ did not fix the problem caused by Adam’s sin—He simply paves a way so that if a man chooses Christ by His own “free? will, then his own personal sin problem is cured.  However, this clearly contradicts Paul’s universal thrust in Romans 5:12-18, 1 Cor. 15:22-28, Phil. 2:10,11, and all throughout the Scriptures

Excerpt from Ken Ekerty
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roperfam

  • Guest
Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2006, 10:44:46 AM »

Quote from: rvhill
Quote from: broken
I need to understand the general conception regarding the reason that Adam and Eve could not possibly be created perfect.  Here's the concise version of what I'm hearing:

If it was in God's plan that Adam and Eve live in sin, then they could not possibly have been created perfect or else the Tree of Life would not be tempting to them, for temptation only occurs in the carnal mind (carnal is a word that tends to be overabused and misunderstood on this board also, but that's another discussion).  

Am I right in my assessment?

Brandon


The two Adams were both made innocent, and they had no shame. It does not say they were perfect.


Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 :D  :D
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broken

  • Guest
Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2006, 01:38:55 PM »

Quote from: rvhill
Quote from: broken
I need to understand the general conception regarding the reason that Adam and Eve could not possibly be created perfect.  Here's the concise version of what I'm hearing:

If it was in God's plan that Adam and Eve live in sin, then they could not possibly have been created perfect or else the Tree of Life would not be tempting to them, for temptation only occurs in the carnal mind (carnal is a word that tends to be overabused and misunderstood on this board also, but that's another discussion).  

Am I right in my assessment?

Brandon


The two Adams were both made innocent, and they had no shame. It does not say they were perfect.


1. Jesus had to be perfect...otherwise his sacrifice is invalidated.

2. Further than that, innocence is perfection.  Innocence must be sinlessness, which is perfection.

Brandon
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Nelson

  • Guest
Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2006, 01:46:33 PM »

Hi Brandon,

Nothing to do with this topic, just wanted to say nice to see you back again.

Hope all is well with you and yours

Grace and peace

Nelson
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Sonia

  • Guest
Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2006, 03:13:56 PM »

I second the welcome! Nice to see you again.

I guess the question to consider is "What does it mean that Christ is the second Adam?"

Brandon, I think you're arguing that Adam was created perfect because Jesus is perfect? Is there scriptural basis for that?

Sonia
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rvhill

  • Guest
Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2006, 05:16:11 PM »

Quote from: broken
Quote from: rvhill
Quote from: broken
I need to understand the general conception regarding the reason that Adam and Eve could not possibly be created perfect.  Here's the concise version of what I'm hearing:

If it was in God's plan that Adam and Eve live in sin, then they could not possibly have been created perfect or else the Tree of Life would not be tempting to them, for temptation only occurs in the carnal mind (carnal is a word that tends to be overabused and misunderstood on this board also, but that's another discussion).  

Am I right in my assessment?

Brandon



The two Adams were both made innocent, and they had no shame. It does not say they were perfect.


1. Jesus had to be perfect...otherwise his sacrifice is invalidated.

2. Further than that, innocence is perfection.  Innocence must be sinlessness, which is perfection.

Brandon


You miss understand me, by the two Adams I meant Adam and Eve, as they are both Adam, tell they eat of the fruit.   Jesus is a Separate person From Adam. I nave call Jesus Adam.  They are both the son of God, but no two brother are the same.
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