> General Discussions
Free Will
rocky:
Mat 26:31 Then said Jesus, "This night all of you will stumble and fail in your fidelity to me; for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK WILL BE SCATTERED IN ALL DIRECTIONS.'
Mat 26:33 "All may stumble and fail," said Peter, "but I never will."
Mat 26:35 "Even if I must die with you," declared Peter, "I will never disown you." In like manner protested all the disciples.
Mat 26:69 Peter meanwhile was sitting outside in the court of the palace, when one of the maidservants came over to him and said, "You too were with Jesus the Galilaean."
Mat 26:70 He denied it before them all, saying, "I do not know what you mean."
Mat 26:71 Soon afterwards he went out and stood in the gateway, when another girl saw him, and said, addressing the people there, "This man was with Jesus the Nazarene."
Mat 26:72 Again he denied it with an oath. "I do not know the man," he said. Mat 26:74 Then with curses and oaths he declared, "I do not know the man." Immediately a cock crowed,
Mat 26:75 and Peter recollected the words of Jesus, how He had said, "Before the cock crows you will three times disown me." And he went out and wept aloud, bitterly.
I see no way Peter could not have denied Christ three times. His will was not free, it was determined beforehand what he would do.
Joey Porter:
--- Quote from: rocky on July 29, 2006, 01:06:14 AM ---Mat 26:31 Then said Jesus, "This night all of you will stumble and fail in your fidelity to me; for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK WILL BE SCATTERED IN ALL DIRECTIONS.'
Mat 26:33 "All may stumble and fail," said Peter, "but I never will."
Mat 26:35 "Even if I must die with you," declared Peter, "I will never disown you." In like manner protested all the disciples.
Mat 26:69 Peter meanwhile was sitting outside in the court of the palace, when one of the maidservants came over to him and said, "You too were with Jesus the Galilaean."
Mat 26:70 He denied it before them all, saying, "I do not know what you mean."
Mat 26:71 Soon afterwards he went out and stood in the gateway, when another girl saw him, and said, addressing the people there, "This man was with Jesus the Nazarene."
Mat 26:72 Again he denied it with an oath. "I do not know the man," he said. Mat 26:74 Then with curses and oaths he declared, "I do not know the man." Immediately a cock crowed,
Mat 26:75 and Peter recollected the words of Jesus, how He had said, "Before the cock crows you will three times disown me." And he went out and wept aloud, bitterly.
I see no way Peter could not have denied Christ three times. His will was not free, it was determined beforehand what he would do.
--- End quote ---
That's true. Once God declares a prophecy, how could there be any possible way that anyone could choose to do something that opposes that prophecy?
Lightseeker:
Joe,
Thank you for your lengthly response...you've have given some really good things to consider. I have read the 'Free will portions of the LOF' series, but you are correct that it was one time. The problem is, I ask myself questions concerning the teaching from beginning to end. And I have also been exposed to a similar teaching by Preston Eby titled "What do you mean man is a free moral agent". It's quite similar and was easier to accept more of it (though not all) because of his defining of 'free, moral, agent'. I don't believe that one has to completely understand a teaching the first time to get a feeling that bears witness to one's spirit as to its truth. And I do see the truth in the dictionary definiton as you pointed out.Your definition/post also eliminated 'choices' also. But I thought I remembered Ray saying he does believe in us "making choices". Am I remembering that wrong?
--- Quote ---Lightseeker, attempting to get the members to condense all of this into a "Reader's Digest" format in the order of your questions is not a reasonable request, reread the material and e-mail Ray any disputes you may have with his views with 2 scriptural witnesses.
--- End quote ---
I admit it was a 'condensed attempt' to question the condensed quoted post which this thread was based upon. I simply asked a number of questions based on that condensed post. And I really don't want to respond to your post with another number of questions which your post raises to me. I would have preferred simple, or even complex answers, to even one of my questions. Several of which were based upon "two verses" in context which is why I asked them.
I'll end this now in the hope that you can all bear with me as I seek not, 'to win some debate'...but only 'to find a pearl of truth'.
hillsbororiver:
More from Ray on this;
> Hi, I will not add to all of the words that you must read every day saying
> millions of words of gratitude. So to sum it all up. THANK YOU SO VERY
> MUCH!!!! THANK YOU GOD!
>
> Now here is my question: Free Will i have read much of your work and
> understand that we have NO FREE will. But how far does it extend. Is God in
> control of every little move we make (i like to believe so) And if He is
> then why would he punish the wicked? Obviously not for all eternity! But
> why?? Is it not His Will that they be wicked?? Potter of honour and
> dishonour?, creator of evil, hardened pharohs heart? So why would they be
> punished? And is not the evil doctrine of hell (depths of Satan) also Gods
> will, strong delusion, NONE OTHER BURDEN etc.. IS NOT EVERYTHINGS GODS
> WILL??
> so heres one of many scriptures that confuse me on this free will subject:
>
> "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
> of heaven: but he that does the will of My Father which is in heaven. MANY
> will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name?
> And in Thy name have cast out devils [demons]? And in Thy name done MANY
> WONDERFUL WORKS? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
> from Me, ye [ye means ‘ALL of you’] that work INIQUITY [lawlessness]" (Matt.
> 7:21-23).
>
> Does not all we do the will of God? Isn't it impossible not to? Is not
> EVERYTHING IN THIS ENTIRE WORLD THAT TAKES PLACE THE WILL OF GOD!!!?? So how
> can God not alow people to enter into His Kingdom when He is the one who
> Wills them to do Good and Evil,Honour and Dishonour, INIQUITY AND SIN!!??
> Doesnt He control all? or does he onl y control some things? i am confused
> why God would not alow certain people into his kingdom if it is His Will
> that they work Iniquity!
>
> Hope you can understand my question.
> Thank you
> Humbly In Christ
> Alex
Dear Alex:
We must distinguish between God's "will" as a noun meaing His ultimate purpose and destination of things, and God's "plan" to achieve His "will." It is God's will that mankind live righteously, but it is His purpose, plan, and intention that they first live UNrighteously. The first is a necessary precursor to achieve the second. God commands men to do the impossible. This too is a necessary precursor for man's learning. We must be humbled in our utter inability to do God's perfect will, before we will ever repent of our weakness and wickedness. And understand that God does not force us to sin. We sin voluntarily from our hearts, and in so doing it is only right and good that we should be punished for sinning. Our hearts and minds must be converted from what they are into the Image of God's Son.
God be with you,
Ray
tb:
Here's how I see it.
If I loaded up 10 people from 10 different walks of life onto a bus and took them to a bar I would get 10 different reactions. Some would be appalled, some would be curious, some would go in but not drink, some would go in and get drunk -- the point is that if we were robots as some suggest then we would all react the same. But we are all different. If we were never tested and tried we would all never know sin, but we would also never know righteousness. That would be a robot. God gives us a wonderful opportunity to know righteousness. The only way to get there is through sin. We do have a will, but it is tried and tested constantly by our creator. WHY? Because it is the only way he can teach us about righteousness. We truly learn through our mistakes. Some of us will learn righteousness in this lifetime. Those will be in the first resurrection. The majority however will not learn righteousness in this lifetime, their sins will lead them to their deaths and ultimate judgment in the second resurrection. It is not the sins that will be judged it is our reactions to the trials and temptations. Some would argue that if God never tempted us than we would never sin. They miss the point. Our purpose here is to learn true sacrifice. How can we learn not to sin if we are never tempted to sin. So NO our wills are not free from manipulation. We are NOT free because God is always tempting and trying our hearts. It has been an amazing journey from the time I first ran across Ray's site to now! I find myself praying that my will be aligned with His. When I pray that-- it happens! That's the peace that passes all understanding. To have something horrible happen to you and know that it was part of God's plan and for a bigger purpose is sooo powerful. Not that it has been or is an easy road to travel. I feel (a little) like Jesus in the garden crying first that it all be taken away and then also that God's will be done. Knowing that God's Will will hurt and yet wanting it anyway because it will be the best possible way. Unbelievable stuff! Of course I tremble every morning. God is so powerful and I feel it every day how in control He really is and how puny it makes me feel. Yet at the same time I feel so powerful not having to "control" everything, you know? Just riding it out and letting God's breath blow me where He wants me to go. Then a storm comes in and I say "hey, God, I know that's you; I hope this one isn't too bad; help me make it through and give me your peace" And when I pray that I always get that peace and a knowledge that either "everything is going to be okay", or "hang on this is going to be tough!" Either way I get closer to God every time and that is all worth it to me! (Sorry to ramble, just having a moment) ;)
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