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Free Will

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jerry:
I think about the freewill thing a lot,Its a real brain frier,somtimes I can feel the electrical currents short sercute in my mind,though I beleave that God is in control of his creation it still boggles my mind at times,but we are the clay and he is the potter,the clay does'nt say to the potter<hey I dont want to be a pot or a jar,we are just clay......jerry

Harryfeat:

--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on August 04, 2006, 09:28:47 AM ---

Yes, we can make choices within certain parameters but we have about as much "free will" as a ball of clay in a potter's hands.

Joe     

--- End quote ---

Hello Joe,

The concept of "free will in a box" is something that I have been struggling with for some time.  I recognize that God is the cause of all things but how much freedom of choice within parameters do we have? 

In Genesis 1:28 man is given "dominion" over the earth.  I took that to mean all things physical.  In Gen 2:16 Adam was given the freedom to choose to eat from everything but the tree of knowledge. 

My perspective on  man's choice has always been that I wonder whether God does not interfere with any choices or limit the choices in any way with respect to our lives here on earth.  In other words.  If you are a drunk, it is not God's will or His doing but your own choices within the framework of the earth.  The argument that a person is born predisposed to act in a certain way has always been an elusive concept to me since much of who we become depends, as you said before, on the parents and environment were born to. So much of our choices are also determined by the framework that our parents have created. Our choices are limited by what their prior choices.  I have always wondered how much or detailed is the control without interference that mankind has.

I guess ultimately,  the question I have is can anyone define what are the parameters of choice God has given mankind?

feat

hillsbororiver:

--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on August 03, 2006, 10:59:55 PM ---"Free will" is a bogus term in and of itself. Are we free to choose our race? Our parents? Our height? What country we were born in? Our intelligence or our talents? Can our "free will" make any of us an NBA caliber basketball player?

If we were walking down a road and came to a 20 foot tall brick wall can our "free will" allow us to pass through that wall or must we turn back? Even secular philosophers recognized that although we make choices we do not make uncaused choices, that is a christian hoax.

We can choose to drive to work or take a bus or even walk, but our "free will" does not allow us to flap our arms and fly there or even allow us the "free will" not to go to work, that is if we want a roof over our heads and food on the table. Yes, food, does our "free will" give us the opportunity not to have to eat? Sure, if we want to die, doesn't sound like an uncaused choice to me.

We have limitations all around us in our lives, we can make a choice within the confines of our circumstances (who determines our circumstances?) but we do not have nearly enough power to defeat the laws of physics or gravity by our "free will" nor do we have the power to do anything outside the bounds which He has placed us in.

Joe   


--- End quote ---

hillsbororiver:
From Ray's "Myth of Free Will" Part A (LOF 15):

The Myth of Free-Will Exposed

There was a time when I too was hoodwinked into believing that man has a "free will." I believed free will to be man’s ability to make choices, change his mind, learn from experiences, etc. And since it is a fact that man can indeed do these things, it seemed evident to me that man has free will. But then I learned that these are not the definition of free will at all.

Free will does not actually and literally mean that one can make choices, create, change his mind, or reformulate ideas and data, etc., but that those choices and thought processes must themselves be free thoughts and free choices. "Free will" is only true if our choices are also free. But free from what? Why, free from being forced upon us against our will, or free from being caused by anyone or anything except our OWN will. And so, yes, man can think, process data, make choices, change his choices, etc. But none of these activities are free from internal or external CAUSES.

That man has a will, there is no debate. It is the teaching that man himself determines his own will, FREELY, without anything causing his will or his choices to be what they are. The idea of free will or free moral agency is that man can by himself unaided by anything else, originate his own choices of his will.

But does man actually possess such a power? And if he does, where is the proof? Now for all who have no confidence in the Scriptures, let me say that there is absolutely no scientific proof that man has a "free will" or the ability to make "uncaused choices." If such a freedom of the will existed, it should be possible to demonstrate it. But there is no such scientific demonstration that man can formulate thoughts and actions to which absolutely no cause whatsoever can be attributed.

And for all who do have confidence in the Scriptures, let me say equally dogmatically that there is absolutely no Scriptural proof for man having a "free will" or the ability to make "uncaused choices." In every case Scripture shows that it is God Who is behind the scene of all circumstances that influence and cause a man to make the one and only choice possible under any given circumstance. This law of "cause and effect" is stated and demonstrated time and again in Scripture. Ignorance of these behind the scenes causes does not disprove the fact that they are the actual and literal cause of our choices

There are laws of science that men do not wish to carry over into his private and spiritual life. Why? Well, because he doesn’t like the ramifications of these laws. He does not want to admit that he is bound and controlled by laws. He wants to be "free"—free to be his own god, free to determine his own destiny, free to override the rule and dominance of God, free to rebel or free to obey, but freedom of the will at all cost.

I will admit that it is a real shock when we first come to understand that of ourselves we cannot make one "free" choice to do good. Something must cause that choice, but the carnal mind hates to be "caused" to do anything. "God gave all men free will," he shouts. God gave man no such thing. Free will is a phantom illusion that has deceived the whole world.

But how could most of the population of the entire world for the whole history of the world believe something as fundamental as "free will," if such a thing does not even exist? Well, that’s a fair question, and before I get into dozens and dozens of specific proofs that free will does not exist, let me just show you two very broad and Scriptural statements that would certainly be indicators that maybe what is popularly believed and taught is generally not true:



http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

hillsbororiver:

--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on August 03, 2006, 10:07:29 AM ---Good point Bobby, I found some interesting quotes on "Free will" from the philosophy/science  view of the matter;

Baruch Spinoza compared man's belief in free will to a stone thinking it chose the path it traveled through the air and the spot it landed. In Ethics he wrote, "The decisions of the mind are nothing save desires, which vary according to various dispositions." "There is in the mind no absolute or free will, but the mind is determined in willing this or that by a cause which is determined in its turn by another cause, and this by another and so on to infinity." "Men think themselves free because they are conscious of their volitions and desires, but are ignorant of the causes by which they are led to wish and desire." [4] [5]

Arthur Schopenhauer, concurring with Spinoza, wrote, "Everyone believes himself à priori to be perfectly free, even in his individual actions, and thinks that at every moment he can commence another manner of life... . But à posteriori, through experience, he finds to his astonishment that he is not free, but subjected to necessity, that in spite of all his resolutions and reflections he does not change his conduct, and that from the beginning of his life to the end of it, he must carry out the very character which he himself condemns... ."[6]

You can do what you will, but in any given moment of your life you can will only one definite thing and absolutely nothing other than that one thing.

— Schopenhauer, On the Freedom of the Will, Ch. II

I can do what I will: I can, if I will, give everything I have to the poor and thus become poor myself — if I will! But I cannot will this, because the opposing motives have much too much power over me for me to be able to. On the other hand, if I had a different character, even to the extent that I were a saint, then I would be able to will it. But then I could not keep from willing it, and hence I would have to do so... [A]s little as a ball on a billiard table can move before receiving an impact, so little can a man get up from his chair before being drawn or driven by a motive. But then his getting up is as necessary and inevitable as the rolling of a ball after the impact. And to expect that anyone will do something to which absolutely no interest impels him is the same as to expect that a piece of wood shall move toward me without being pulled by a string.

— Ibid., Ch. III

Schopenhauer's saying, that a human can very well do what he wants, but can not will what he wants, accompanies me in all of life's circumstances and reconciles me with the actions of humans, even when they are truly distressing.

— Albert Einstein, Address to the German League for Human Rights, November 1928. Credo



--- End quote ---

I also posted this earlier in the thread, a secular point of view on the subject.

His Peace to all,

Joe

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