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Author Topic: accountable vs responsible?  (Read 3157 times)

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Reg

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accountable vs responsible?
« on: March 23, 2013, 03:09:17 AM »

I understand that man has no free will...God's will reigns supreme whether or not we realize it.  I have been reading in the lake of fire series that God is responsible for the sin because he created man to be flawed so God has thus provided a solution (Jesus-salvation of all).

I am having trouble understanding how man is accountable. Saying that we willingly sin is confusing since we have no free will..I looked up the definition for accountable and the definition includes the term responsible! What we do is based on or whole sets of history, environment etc.  not our choice made from nothing but free will?  So confused here.

Reg
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: accountable vs responsible?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2013, 05:22:49 AM »

It's good that our Creator is CAUSING you to try to UNDERSTAND Reg. ~ :)

Those who truly, not flippantly, DESIRE to understand, are also CAUSED to experience the frustration of not knowing. The process of maturation includes coming to the  realisation that there has to be something missing in the puzzle that makes the picture look confusing.

It happens to us all. It is in the process of our Creators design. Ray said that we are not stamped out like cookie's but through the furnace of pain, we are created. This is Judgement on the House of God now that is on you Reg. It is wonderful!

It is in the process of coming to that illusive comprehensive insight given by the Spirit, the Paraclete, that can show us and explain away all doubt, misunderstandings and confusion.

To answer your statement/question : What we do is based on or whole sets of history, environment etc.  not our choice made from nothing but free will?...the answer is YES. Our Creator, Finisher of our Faith, provides each life its own unique set of "circumstances".

Paul said we are to judge ourselves.

Ray gave examples of PREFERENCES when he described one will like apple pie above cherry pie.

The key for me is in that word PREFERENCE.

A thief will prefer to steel rather than a day's hard labour.

A holy person who is beginning to see the Perfection in Christ, will PREFER to live in an honest way, observing the commandments of Jesus.

What you PREFER, is the barometer of your progress.

What you prefer governs your accountability.

You see, our Creator puts tests before us all the way! Your preferences will determine your choices and actions and how you conduct yourself.

Slowly, painfully, each comes to the point of changing our preferences and FOR THAT CHANGE, our Creator, is Wholly Responsible!

What you PREFER, SHOWS where you are at in your growing and being conformed to His Spirit.

Paul also illustrated this in his expressing lamentation in that he did not do what he wanted to do, but what he did not want to do. He declared his preference and at the same time his fleshy inability to change himself into what he loved and adored that is Christ Himself.

Arc
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cjwood

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Re: accountable vs responsible?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2013, 05:47:22 AM »

thanks deborah/arcturus.  once again in following as the Spirit leads to post your words of compassion and maturity. 

reg, accountability vs responsibility is a hard Truth for many to understand, much less accept.  but it is in fact a Truth reflected in the Holy Scriptures themselves.  it is a freeing wisdom.  it is good to question and desire spiritual understanding.

claudia
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Reg

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Re: accountable vs responsible?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2013, 01:28:42 PM »

Very encouraging to ponder what you have said and it does make sense.

I'm wondering what Ray meant by accountable..I think maybe I found the answer but want to make sure I'm on the right track...

Here's the geek out (I will try to keep this concise):
The English word accountable seems to have come around during the 1400s and is synonymous with responsible-I'm pretty positive that's not what Ray intended when he said "God is responsible, man is accountable..."

I tried to find scriptures that talk of man giving an account (seems like a good place to find accountability)

Young's literal concordance to the Bible lists a few that seem to apply..
Page 11, account section 5-
Word, reckoning, logos
Matt 12:36 shall give an account thereof in the day of
Like 16:2 give an account of Thy stewardship
Romans 14:12 every one of us shall give an account of

Logos (found this on blue letter Bible I think)
A person sharing a message (discourse, communication-speech) is a broad term meaning"reasoning expressed by words"
     From Lego-speaking to a conclusion


Hate to put Hitler on the spot but he is an easy example of a wicked person not saved in his life..
     Hitler will be resurrected to judgment and the lake of fire (both being good things that the elect face right now).  Ultimately Hitler will be purified and saved.. Maybe I'm splitting hairs here but I am curious about how this plays out...

So, Hitler was helpless in his life of sin..he couldn't change a thing unless God had wanted it so...when Hitler gives an account, does that mean that he will talk about what he did and why he thought as he did? Like, is this a learning experience for Hitler?

I could be way off here, but the accounting in my life seems to go hand in hand with the judgment..for example I get correction as I start to think or do wrong..or I start to go over my day and I can't even finish my "reasoning" before it's interrupted by a well placed chastisement.  So is that what it means to be accountable for sin and is this the same process all mankind goes through in the resurrection of judgment?

Thanks!
Reg
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: accountable vs responsible?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2013, 02:06:52 PM »

Reg


Repent means to turn around, to go the other way. Whatever you are doing thatís wrong and sinful and evil and carnal and worldly and everything else, you turn around, you 'repent' and you go the other direction.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?action=search2

Accountability is for the ENJOYMENT OF sin, adrenalin rush,  junky addiction of the lust of the flesh, eyes and pride of life.

Repentance, brings bitter regret and sorrow for having ever enjoyed wickedness in participation and association with evil.

Arc
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Reg

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Re: accountable vs responsible?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2013, 02:28:44 PM »

I'm not sure we are on the same page here Arc... Repentance and accountability are different topics although they are connected.

When I see the English term accountable I think of fault our blame...but that does not appear to be the definition of logos as translated in the above verses.

I do see how my examples may lead to the thoughts on repentance, I am having trouble finding good examples to explain myself...

Reg
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: accountable vs responsible?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2013, 03:04:40 PM »

I understand that man has no free will...God's will reigns supreme whether or not we realize it.  I have been reading in the lake of fire series that God is responsible for the sin because he created man to be flawed so God has thus provided a solution (Jesus-salvation of all).

I am having trouble understanding how man is accountable. Saying that we willingly sin is confusing since we have no free will..I looked up the definition for accountable and the definition includes the term responsible! What we do is based on or whole sets of history, environment etc.  not our choice made from nothing but free will?  So confused here.

Reg

It's very simple reg.

Because God created man practically a sinning machine, with a weak heart and because it takes spiritual strength to do what is right, man volunteers to sin on a daily basis. However, because he was created thus, God takes full responsibility by dying and one day redeeming all creation. This is God being responsible.

Now, when you decided to sin however, you wanted to in your heart, God did not force you or make you sin. You absolutely wanted to commit that sin when you did therefor you are accountable. This is you being held accountable.

Two examples;

The earth is naturally dark on its own. It is devoid of light. Earth can be made to metaphorically represent man. The sun, which can be metaphorically analogous to God, is what shines and gives light to the earth. So long as the sun is near the earth will be filled with light. However, take away that light and the earth instantly becomes dark again. So much like the earth, there is nothing in man that inately gives him the ability to Shine (Do good/right), this is the power of God.

Now the example ray uses is one of a bible verse a pornography magazine.

Lets assume you have a man in a closed room and there is absolutely no one around and no one who will know what he does in that room. Now lets assume before him are these two books, one the Word of God and the other all things carnal in the form of pornography. Which book do you think this man will choose?

The porno of course because it takes spiritual strength to do what is good and open up the Word of God over the images of beautiful naked women! This is the state in which man was created, a very weak heart, subject to vanity, carnal etc.. and so God says, Hey! I'm not an idiot, I know I'm responsible for this so I'm dying for all these sins mankind will commit and I will change you.

Man however, when he chose to open up that pornography magazine, absolutely wanted to. No one forced him, no one made him do it, He really wanted to do it. He had every intention in his heart at that moment to do it and so he will be held accountable. This is accountability.

Though God may have brought about the circumstances (responsible) which put this man in this position to sin, the man absolutely wanted to sin in that moment which he commited the sin (accountable).

Does that help?

Its how I understand it and I think its exactly how it works.

God be with you,

Alex
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 03:07:10 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Reg

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Re: accountable vs responsible?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2013, 03:30:59 PM »

Alex,
This it's what I needed to hear and need to ponder for a few thousand hours or so before it can start to sink in.  I just found an email on Bible truths where Ray addresses the confusion between responsibility and accountability-then I read your reply which is in line with the email from Ray (yay two witnesses).  Seems like I wasn't quite understanding lack of free will and man's ability to choose based on all the caused input...this really helps with several topics I'm struggling to grasp!

Thanks :)
Reg
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: accountable vs responsible?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2013, 03:55:43 PM »

Alex,
This it's what I needed to hear and need to ponder for a few thousand hours or so before it can start to sink in.  I just found an email on Bible truths where Ray addresses the confusion between responsibility and accountability-then I read your reply which is in line with the email from Ray (yay two witnesses).  Seems like I wasn't quite understanding lack of free will and man's ability to choose based on all the caused input...this really helps with several topics I'm struggling to grasp!

Thanks :)
Reg

Not a problem Reg! Glad to be of service! :)
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Rex8

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Re: accountable vs responsible?
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2013, 07:33:15 PM »

If you stick you hand in a fire you get a burnt hand.That is being accountable....cause and effect.Being responsible is being the one who set the causes in motion and have a purpose for them.
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Rito1980

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Re: accountable vs responsible?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2013, 10:36:35 PM »

If i shove someone out a window then im responsible for being bully. But that person is accountable for letting their guard down. I know that sounds cruel but god "loves you" so thats all that matters right? Hope that helps.  :)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 10:47:42 PM by Rito1980 »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: accountable vs responsible?
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2013, 03:05:29 AM »

If i shove someone out a window then im responsible for being bully. But that person is accountable for letting their guard down. I know that sounds cruel but god "loves you" so thats all that matters right? Hope that helps.  :)

Letting your "guard down," whatever that means, is not a sin. Pushing someone out the window on the other hand... THAT is very much a sin and murder most likely. In your case, you would be accountable for your actions of murder while God would be responsible for having brought you into existence knowing one day, that your spiritual weakness by His purpose would lead you to commit murder.

Hope that helps :)
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Rito1980

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Re: accountable vs responsible?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2013, 08:33:38 PM »

Alien you dont get it. If murderers or drug addicts sin its because God placed certain genetics and bad upbringings and enviroments to cause them to be that way.He even causes illness and accidents. He drives people to dispair till the finally comit suicide etc.  We are just a tool.

God be with you.

If i shove someone out a window then im responsible for being bully. But that person is accountable for letting their guard down. I know that sounds cruel but god "loves you" so thats all that matters right? Hope that helps.  :)

Letting your "guard down," whatever that means, is not a sin. Pushing someone out the window on the other hand... THAT is very much a sin and murder most likely. In your case, you would be accountable for your actions of murder while God would be responsible for having brought you into existence knowing one day, that your spiritual weakness by His purpose would lead you to commit murder.

Hope that helps :)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 10:58:00 PM by Rito1980 »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: accountable vs responsible?
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2013, 01:01:44 AM »

He makes the blind.  He makes the blind to see.  All this life is just a vapor.  It's all good in the end.

Seems to me the best thing is to 'die' before I die. 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 01:22:20 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Dave in Tenn

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Re: accountable vs responsible?
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2013, 05:09:49 AM »

I understand that man has no free will...God's will reigns supreme whether or not we realize it.  I have been reading in the lake of fire series that God is responsible for the sin because he created man to be flawed so God has thus provided a solution (Jesus-salvation of all).

I am having trouble understanding how man is accountable. Saying that we willingly sin is confusing since we have no free will..I looked up the definition for accountable and the definition includes the term responsible! What we do is based on or whole sets of history, environment etc.  not our choice made from nothing but free will?  So confused here.

Reg

Responsibility and Accountability are closely related, but not full-on synonyms.  I'm not sure I can adequately explain it, but it's helpful to me to look at it in this 'noun' form.

One can 'take responsibility' but one cannot 'take accountability'.   

Don't forget, we DO have a will!  It's just that it's not FREE.  We DO the things we DO, even if we cannot have chosen differently at any point in time.  We can't draw good water out of a bad well.  But the LORD is not done with us.

1Co 15:10  But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Paul gave account (and was accountable) for this 'labouring more abundantly than they all', but he recognized God's responsibility for the Grace that was with him.  That's just one of many places where Paul expresses in different ways that we DO the things we DO because of the things God is doing and has done.

     
   
 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
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