Will we ever see Our Heavenly Father

[cheekie3]

All -

Will we ever see Our Heavenly Father.

We know that we will one day be like Jesus Christ - and see Jesus as he is now.

But when we are like Jesus - will we be able to see Our Heavenly Father.

I know Ray taught on this.

Regards, George.

[Kat]

Hi George,

Here are a couple places Ray spoke of the Father.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2324.0 ------------

Notice what Jesus said concerning His God and His Father:  "...NO MAN knows the the Son, but the Father, NEITHER knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will REVEAL HIM" (Matt. 11:27 & Luke 10:22).  Now then, with that in mind:  "NO MAN has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, HE has declared [unfoled or interpreted] Him" (John 1:18). Did Jesus lie?  Did Moses indeed see "God the FATHER?"  Not according to the Scriptures:  not according to Jesus His Son.  Did the Apostles know anything about the Father of Jesus?  "Philip said unto Him, Lord show US [all of us] the  Father, and it suffices US" (John 14:.

The "LORD--Elohim/Jehovah/God" of the Old Testament was Jesus Christ, not Jesus' Father. And God the Father is SPIRIT (John 4:24), and INVISIBLE (Col. 1:15).

God is SPIRIT (John 4:24)
God is INVISIBLE (Col. 1:15)
No man has seen God (John 1:18)
No man ever heard God or seen His shape [Gk: 'nor a perception of Him have you seen]" (John 5:37)
Jesus came out from God (Rev. 2:14;  John 8:42;  16:28;  17:5, 8, 24, Col. 1:13;  etc.)
Jesus is THE LORD/Jehovah of the Old Testament (John 8:58;  I Cor. 10;4;  etc.)
Jesus IS A MAN (I Thes. 2:15).
God is NOT A MAN (Num. 23:19).
Etc., etc., etc.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=11859.0 ---------

So let's think about this a little bit, who is the Father? In Him we live and breath and have our being. Liken the ocean to the Spirit of God, and liken us to the fish.  The fish are 95% water, the ocean is in the fish, and the fish are in the ocean, get it.
A bird has very porous bones, because they have to be very light. It flies in the heavens, it breaths fast, because it needs strength and oxygen. So the air (which is like the Spirit of God, which is what he calls it in the NT, Greek word for spirit is pheuma), the expanse is even called heaven, where the bird flies, and liken the air to the Spirit of God. The bird has air in him and is flying through the air.

Now this is what the Scriptures say, we are in God and God is in us. So, get it out of your head that God is a man, sitting on a stone throne, like Abraham Lincoln in Washington D.C., an old man with gray hair. God is right here, it (Bible) says so, we have to just listen to the words.

God is Spirit, it also says God is invisible, you can't see Him, not literally. We can see Him in Spirit, as in our heart, in our mind, our soul, our spirit, in our innermost being.

The thing that makes us different from plants and other animals, is we can see God.  I'm trying to help you right now, to see God. So when you leave here, you will see God in a way you didn't, when you walked in here. If God opens it up to you, I can only tell you, but God must open it up for you to grasp it.

God is here, not here because we are here, but He was here before we got here and He'll still be after we leave. Because this desk is here and this desk has it's cohesion in Jesus Christ. It is through Jesus Christ that this desk holds together or it would fall apart. It takes energy and power, what is the source of the power, Jesus Christ, which comes from the Father and it's passed off out of Him. One Father, one God, all and everything is out of Him. GOD IS ALMIGHTY!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

I think I remember reading Ray saying, He doesn't think we will ever see the Father.

I remember being bummed hearing that line.

I just don't know.. right now, we havn't seen the Father or any of that jazz, we just know Him as Christ showed Him to us, declared Him to us, was His image etc.. but we havn't actually seen or heard from HIM.

I hope one day that will change but ray didn't think it would and I don't know if He ever went into great detail as to why. I can only imagine in "Solving the enigma of God," that he had plans to write about this and expound on why he felt the Father was someone we would never see, ever.

[Dave in Tenn]

Acts 17.

I've had trouble understanding in past discussions on this just what do we think we will "see" when we see Him?  Did Jesus reveal Him, or didn't He?

Also recommended reading.  I just re-read this last night.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html  I'm not sure which 'audio' this came from.  Maybe somebody else can link to it.

 

[John from Kentucky]

Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? 
He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?  John 14:8-9


I and the Father are one.  John 10:30

[Kat]

Here is a email where Ray explained that God is eternal.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11344.msg98233.html#new -------

Your question may be "short," but it is not specific.  I realize how difficult
for most to "pay close attention to all the words."

You ask whether "God our Father" had a beginning?  You then suggest that the churches teach that
"God always existed."  Which is your question?  Did "God the FATHER" have a beginning or did 'GOD"
have a beginning.  See the difference?  We must make a distinction, as there is a distinction.

The phrase "God the Father" is nowhere found in the O.T. Hebrew Scriptures, only in the N.T. Greek (Ex:  John 6:27).
"GOD" (Who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ) has always existed and did not have a beginning.
However, God as a "FATHER," did have a beginning.  One cannot be a father unless He is a "parent," for that
is one of the main definitions of a "father" in the Greek language.  God has conceived a Son, and from that
time He became a FATHER with a Child--the beginning of His FAMILY.

God means "placer or disposer."  God is not a "placEE" or a "disposEE."  God the PlacER was never placED

So:  "GOD" as the original supreme Being of the universe did not have a beginning.
But God "THE FATHER" of our Lord Jesus Christ did not become the "FATHER" until He became the Father
and Spiritual Parent of Jesus Christ.  Hope this helps clear up your discussion.
God be with you,
Ray
------------------------------------------------------------------

This God who became the Father of Jesus Christ, always existed. We only learn about Him from Jesus Christ, He reveals Him and tell us He exists. But Jesus tells us we can not see Him, because He is invisible, Spirit. I don't think we can comprehend that.

So this God that is eternal Spirit wanted to create other life and there arises the plan for this creation. He was invisible and knew physical created being could not relate to Him as He was, invisible Spirit. So why didn't He just make Himself visible, so we could see Him? He DID and that is Jesus Christ, He is a perfect representation of the Father, the God brought about before and put over this entire creation. But He is not the Father. He is what the eternal God designed and brought forth in an image of a man that we can relate to, He is "the first-born," so when all the beings to come were created they would have this God, As Jesus Christ that they could see and hear.

Col 1:15  who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.

Col 1:17  And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is from the 06 conference 'THE FATHER'S WILL?'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html -------

John 10:30  I and the Father are one!

They're not the same person, but 'one,' there's a difference. But one, same spirit, same mind, same attitude, same character, same power, same strength, same wisdom, same purpose, they are one.
v
So He is God, but He is not His own Father. Jesus Christ came to reveal the Father; Luke 10:22; John 6:46;

Matt 11:27, Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.

Nobody knew anything about God the Father, until Jesus Christ revealed Him. The only God that anybody knew was Jesus Christ.
v
If you want to come up with an analogy of where God is in His own realm, as far as time goes. The closest physical analogy you could come up with is a circle. Not starting back there and going this way, that way is the past and this way is the future. 

Now if the realm of eternity is as a circle, can somebody point to where eternity begins on a circle? Can anyone show me, on this circle, where eternity ends? You can't, can you.

Now I'll give you another little mind boggler, not only can you not show me where it begins or where it ends, I'm telling you it has no beginning and it has no end. It doesn't move in a circle, it is a circle. Therefore time has nothing to do with eternity. 

Even your dictionaries most of them, not all, say eternity is an endless period. Eternity has nothing to do with time, time starts here and goes to there. 

Eternity is like a circle, you can't find the beginning and you can't find the end. Because it has no beginning and it has no end. Therefore in that sense a circle is ultimate truth. So God knows there can never be any thing more perfect than He is. That's where He introduces Himself to us. We are introduced to a being who is perfect.
-------------------------------------------------------

Since God the Father embodies eternity, wouldn't that make Him apart from time? The Father must perceives time a certain way, but it appears differently to we finite beings contained within it. So it is not that the Father has always existed for as long as 'time' has existed, because God does not exist in time like we do, He is apart from His creation, transcendent over it and time.

Using the analogy Ray had of the circle, to the Father all points (time presented by the circumference of a circle) in time are equally real, not just the present ("calleth the things that are not, as though they were." Rom 4:17). And this circle can expand out and grow continuously.

Luke 1:33  And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."

The Father has self-existence/sufficiency, is perfection. So that He is changeless, will not change for the worse and does not need to change for the better.

John 4:24  God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Most translations do not use 'a' spirit any more, because God is not limited as a being, even a spirit being.
He is spirit and invisible and He is everywhere at the same time, omnipresent. How could you 'see' something like that?

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Excellent kat, thank you very much!!

[Joel]

I can understand how Phillip must have been confused at the words of Jesus in John 14.
Jesus had just said before Phillip's question, found in verse 7:If ye had known me , ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
The disciples hadn't yet received the indwelling Holy Spirit at that time. They didn't fully understand the truth concerning The Word made flesh.
Phillip wanted to see the Father Jesus was speaking of. Jesus The Word of God, full of the Spirit from the Father was standing in front of him. Everything he said and did was from the Father, he did nothing of his own accord. Jesus ended by saying "Or else believe me for the very works' sake. verse 11.
Matthew 5:8-Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God.
1st John 3:2-Beloved now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that , we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3-And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Joel

[darren]

one can not see, air, wind or spirit. why would that change after the resurrection. God molded man out of dirt/dust from the earth. He breathed life into us with a blast from His Nostriols of His breath giving us a part of Himself (Spirit) giving us life then we became a living soul.

[santgem]

But the question is;

Where is the Father when Jesus is Yahweh?

[Dave in Tenn]

But the question is;

Where is the Father when Jesus is Yahweh?

Act 17:22-31  Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, "Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.  For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, 'TO THE UNKNOWN GOD'. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;  Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Joh 4:19-24 The woman is saying to Him, "Lord, I behold that thou art a prophet.  Our fathers worship in this mountain, and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship."

Jesus is saying to her, "Believe Me, woman, that, coming is an hour when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem shall you be worshiping the Father.  You are worshiping that of which you are not aware; we are worshiping that of which we are aware, for salvation is of the Jews.  But coming is the hour, and now is, when the true worshipers will be worshiping the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also is seeking such to be worshiping Him."

"God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth."



The Father is Spirit.  In Him we live and move and have our being (are).  He was Spirit when Yahweh (aka Jesus) was in the desert with Moses, and they lived and moved and had their being in Him.

[theophilus]

This God who became the Father of Jesus Christ, always existed.

Hello Kat, I was following your train of thought until I stomped on the above statement. I think that as soon as you use a time-related word, you bring in TIME into the equation. In this case, you used the word ALWAYS. "This God ... ALWAYS existed"; even though, you state that God isn't constrained by time but is beyond it. I suspect you are using ALWAYS to try to explain God's attribute of having no beginning nor end.
[/quote]

If you want to come up with an analogy of where God is in His own realm, as far as time goes. The closest physical analogy you could come up with is a circle. Not starting back there and going this way, that way is the past and this way is the future. 

Now if the realm of eternity is as a circle, can somebody point to where eternity begins on a circle? Can anyone show me, on this circle, where eternity ends? You can’t, can you.

Now I’ll give you another little mind boggler, not only can you not show me where it begins or where it ends, I’m telling you it has no beginning and it has no end. It doesn’t move in a circle, it is a circle. Therefore time has nothing to do with eternity. 

Even your dictionaries most of them, not all, say eternity is an endless period. Eternity has nothing to do with time, time starts here and goes to there. 

Eternity is like a circle, you can’t find the beginning and you can’t find the end. Because it has no beginning and it has no end. Therefore in that sense a circle is ultimate truth. So God knows there can never be any thing more perfect than He is. That’s where He introduces Himself to us. We are introduced to a being who is perfect.

"If you want to come up with an analogy of where God is in His own realm" To speak of a realm of God implies that God inhabits this realm--it's His abode. It kinda sounds like a location, a place. If God is eternal, then the realm or place He inhabits must also be eternal. I don't think this is true.

In the circle analogy, you are dealing with an already drawn circle. But suppose the circle hasn't been drawn. You start drawing it at one point (x,y)from the center, and you go around 360 degrees till you draw a complete circle. You started at point x,y and ended at the same point x,y. We can always keep track of this original point and say that this is the beginning of eternity. We could go round and round the circle after that original point and never reach the "end". I may not show you where eternity ends, but I can show you where eternity began, using this analogy. It began at point (x,y).

I understand that to illustrate God's being eternal, your analogy to work must be an ALREADY-DRAWN CIRCLE.

"Time has nothing to do with eternity" I agree with this statement. I would also say that space or location has nothing to do with eternity. So, eternity is a concept we use to try to grasp the apparent fact that eternity, God's state of being, is timeless and spaceless.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Roger

[Rito1980]

The trinity originated with Babylon paganism, and was passed on to most of the world's religions. The early Christian church worshiped one God and believed in a separate Son. It wasn't until the Council of Nicea (in 325AD) when they decided that "Jesus Christ is God", and then the Council of Constantinople (in 381AD) decided that the "Holy Spirit is God". Then it was the Council of Chalcedon (in 451AD) decided that "Jesus Christ is both man and God."

"BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS I AM"

JOHN 8:58

One of the more credible, at least on the surface, arguments made by well meaning Trinitarians is the use of Jesus' words in verse 58 of the 8th chapter of John. In this conversation with the Pharisees, the Lord was rebuking them for not knowing who he really was. He informed them that their father Abraham rejoiced to see his day and he saw it and he was glad. (John 8:57) In doubting him, the Jewish leader responded, "you are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" Following this in verse 58 Jesus said "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was I am."
Many Christians have been decieved by latter day translatiors who dishonestly place the words "I am" in capitol letters. Included in these are, The New King James Version, The Amplified Bible, and The New Living Translation. This is done in an attempt to make it appear that Jesus was quoting here from Exodus 3:14 when God appeared to Moses at the burning bush. It is here where God says "I AM who I AM."

Consider the words in the previous verses, "If I honor myself my honor is nothing. It is my Father who honors me, of whom you say that he is your God." verse 54. It is our contention that Jesus in his pre-human existence acted as the one carrying out Jehovah's wishes. He was representing Jehovah, as his messenger before mankind. What Jesus told the Pharisees was that he knew God, his Father, personally, and that he was present in Abraham's time acting upon the will of his Father.

But the question is;

Where is the Father when Jesus is Yahweh?

[Deborah-Leigh]

Re: Will we ever see Our Heavenly Father

Our "Heavenly Father" is not an object.

Any object you can see, can not be God.

God is not any thing seen or observable.

God is not a person      ~ L Ray Smith

No person can see God who is not a person. The person, has to dissolve completely, surrender absolutely, for that which is not a person, to be made spiritually discernible.

Spiritual discernment doesn't rely on physical sight.

Arc

[Kat]

Hi Rodger,

Thanks for the comments. Yes I realize when trying to explain the unexplainable would not be nearly exact and would run into problems    The concepts that a person comes up with are generated from our knowledge of a physical existence and therefore lacking... but if it was explained in proper terms could we even understand it   

But I do believe our discussions helps our understanding, with the differences in our knowledge and perspective each brings and that's a good thing.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[John from Kentucky]

But the question is;

Where is the Father when Jesus is Yahweh?

Let Jesus answer the question..."I and Father are one." John 10:30  But people don't believe Jesus or His Scriptures.  They think Jesus was confused.  They have to explain away His words.

The apostle Phillip asked Jesus to show them the Father.  Jesus said that if you saw Jesus then you saw the Father.  How is that?  Because Jesus and the Father are one.

Jesus "is the image of the invisible God."  Col 1:15  The Father is invisible Spirit; Jesus is the visible image of God in bodily form.  They are not two persons or two Gods.  God is One.  Jesus is one aspect of God.

That was what Ray tried to get across in his creed when he stated Jesus was God's Authorized Autobiography.  An autobiography is when you write about yourself not another.  But Ray's statement went over most people's heads.

[microlink]

Will we ever see our Heavenly Father? Good question. When born into the God Family at the first resurrection we will be spirit just as the Father and Jesus are spirit. Revelation tells us that the bride (that is us) has made herself ready and we will be at the marriage supper of the Lamb (Jesus). Recognizing that the book of Revelation is mostly symbolic, it does have in it spiritual reality. The Father may well host the marriage supper of the Lamb. As spirit beings in the Family will we not be able to see and visit with our Heavenly Father. What good father is there that does not want his children to be accessible to them. I know that this may be leaning to a physical analogy, but it is worth some thought. The New Testament has much to say about the Bride of Christ, the marriage supper and always being with Christ in the Kingdom of God.
Joe from Ottawa

[Rito1980]

"I and Father are one." John 10:30  it simply means Jesus was in agreement with YAHUA. You need to remember the bible is a middle eastern book. Stop lookin at verses from a western point of view.

[Dave in Tenn]

Rito, Jesus IS the God (Yawheh, Jehovah, or any other way you want to transliterate the name) of the Old testament.

[theophilus]

But the question is;

Where is the Father when Jesus is Yahweh?

Let Jesus answer the question..."I and Father are one." John 10:30  But people don't believe Jesus or His Scriptures.  They think Jesus was confused.  They have to explain away His words.

The apostle Phillip asked Jesus to show them the Father.  Jesus said that if you saw Jesus then you saw the Father.  How is that?  Because Jesus and the Father are one.

Jesus "is the image of the invisible God."  Col 1:15  The Father is invisible Spirit; Jesus is the visible image of God in bodily form.  They are not two persons or two Gods.  God is One.  Jesus is one aspect of God.

That was what Ray tried to get across in his creed when he stated Jesus was God's Authorized Autobiography.  An autobiography is when you write about yourself not another.  But Ray's statement went over most people's heads.

Hello there! So, because "I [Jesus] and the Father are one", when Jesus died on the cross, God Himself passed away, gave up the ghost, right? Since Jesus and the Father are ONE, what affects Jesus affects the Father as well. So, who resurrected Jesus given the fact that the Father had died? If the Father didn't really die, then death is not really death--except maybe when applied to men only.

I need an aspirin people!!!!

I'm going to bed now. I work nights. I pray that God will help me understand this conundrum. I do believe Jesus is God in the O.T.