The Transfiguration

[cheekie3]

All -

Regarding the Transfiguration - was it all a Vision or was Jesus Christ really Transfigured.

Jesus later stated it was a Vision - But was it all a Vision.

George.

[santgem]

All -

Regarding the Transfiguration - was it all a Vision or was Jesus Christ really Transfigured.

Jesus later stated it was a Vision - But was it all a Vision.

George.

Since Jesus stated the Transfiguration was a vision , why would any of us want to question Him?  Was Jesus confused?

Another clue that it was indeed a vision is that both Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus in the vision.  There are Scriptures that say both Moses and Elijah are dead.  Dead means dead.  The two of them will not be alive until a future resurrection.  They, along with all other Old Testament personages, and John the Baptist will not be in the 1st Resurrection.  None of them had the Spirit of God within them because Jesus had not yet died and returned to the Father.  No one, other than Jesus, had the Spirit of God within them until the Day of Pentecost.

Hello brother!

You said that all other Old Testament personages, John the Baptist, Moses and Elijah will not be in the 1st resurrection because Jesus had not yet died and returned to the Father.
Now,
He promised one of the criminals hanging beside Him to be with Him in the paradise and Jesus died and the criminal died but Jesus not yet returned to the Father.
You said that the Spirit of God is not within them and i say that even that criminal besides Him did not receive the Spirit of God because  he died and did not wait Jesus to returned to the Father and missed the  Day of Pentecost.

What about the promise of Jesus, Will he not be in the 1st resurrection??

[santgem]

All -

Regarding the Transfiguration - was it all a Vision or was Jesus Christ really Transfigured.

Jesus later stated it was a Vision - But was it all a Vision.

George.

Since Jesus stated the Transfiguration was a vision , why would any of us want to question Him?  Was Jesus confused?

Another clue that it was indeed a vision is that both Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus in the vision.  There are Scriptures that say both Moses and Elijah are dead.  Dead means dead.  The two of them will not be alive until a future resurrection.  They, along with all other Old Testament personages, and John the Baptist will not be in the 1st Resurrection.  None of them had the Spirit of God within them because Jesus had not yet died and returned to the Father.  No one, other than Jesus, had the Spirit of God within them until the Day of Pentecost.

Hello brother!

You said that all other Old Testament personages, John the Baptist, Moses and Elijah will not be in the 1st resurrection because Jesus had not yet died and returned to the Father.
Now,
He promised one of the criminals hanging beside Him to be with Him in the paradise and Jesus died and the criminal died but Jesus not yet returned to the Father.
You said that the Spirit of God is not within them and i say that even that criminal besides Him did not receive the Spirit of God because  he died and did not wait Jesus to returned to the Father and missed the  Day of Pentecost.

What about the promise of Jesus, Will he not be in the 1st resurrection??

Paradise does not mean 1st Resurrection.

Here is where Ray discusses Paradise a little.  See if this helps.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4646.0.html

I think if not mistaken the criminal besides Jesus will be in the 1st resurrection.
Jesus gave assurance to the criminal that He will be with him in the Paradise.

To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.Rev 2:7

The tree of life is in the midst of the paradise and Jesus promised the criminal to be with Him in the paradise.

Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14

The criminal need not to enter in through the gates in to the city because Jesus Himself will bringt the criminal in the paradise(as promised) which the tree of life is in the midst. The tree of life is Jesus, and Jesus is the life. Criminal may have the right to the tree of life which is in the midst of the garden which Jesus promised him to be with.

For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.Rev 22:15

Outside the city are dogs, sorcerers murderers, etc. these livings will be resurrected in the White throne judgment.

[Kat]

Hi santgem,

The criminal on the cross beside Jesus surely died before Jesus was resurrected and not even John the Baptist will be in the kingdom, because Christ had not yet been our sacrifice.

Mat 11:11  "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Jesus Christ's sacrifice was the greatest act of love ever, but it was His resurrection by which we will receive hope of Life eonian.

1Pe 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

You posted this Scripture...

Blessed [are] they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14

Did the thief live a life dying to self and "do His commandments?" No that is a process worked out in the life of the elect, to judge themselves, "For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God" (1Pe 4:17).

Jesus promised the thief on the cross paradise, and what will this earth be when the dead are raised and Christ is ruling? Of course it will be a paradise compared to what it is now. Here is what Ray taught about "paradise."

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,979.0.html ----

DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that?  Is there any Scriptural justification for that?  NO, no there isn't.  In what way do the Scriptures liken paradise to heaven?  Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures.  "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."

There is the mention of only two primary "gardens" in Scripture: The "tree of life" (Gen. 2:9) is found in Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:9).  And what else is that Garden of Eden called?  Answer: "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).

[1]  The "Garden of Eden."  Was that garden, "heaven?"  What did we find in that garden:  (1) the knowledge of EVIL, (2) rebellion and SIN, (3) a flaming SWORD, (4) the pronouncement of CURSES, and (5) the lying SERPENT (Satan--Rev. 12:9).

[2]  The "Garden of Gethsemane."  Was that garden "heaven?"  What did we find in that garden?
(1) The Apostles DESERTED Jesus in this garden,  (2) Judas BETRAYED Jesus in this garden, (3) an army of wicked elders, scribes and chief priest with clubs and SWORDS, (4) Jesus is carried away from this garden to be CRUCIFIED, and (5) This garden contained the TOMB in which the DEAD Jesus was placed.

Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you?  I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43.  Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God.  This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does.  That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD.
--------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

All -

Regarding the Transfiguration - was it all a Vision or was Jesus Christ really Transfigured.

Jesus later stated it was a Vision - But was it all a Vision.

George.

Meanwhile, back on the farm...   

Hi, Cheekie

Maybe this will help:

You asked, Was it all a vision or was Jesus Christ really transfigured?

Here's what the verse you're referring to says: 

Matthew 17:2 There he [Jesus] was transfigured [metamorphoō] before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

Definition:  Transfigure (verb)

to change the outward form or appearance of; to metamorphose; to transform

especially, to change to something exalted and glorious; to give an ideal form to

glorify, spiritualize

That tells me that it was a vision, and yes Jesus was transfigured and changed form.

Vision (Strong's G3705 - horama):

1) that which is seen, spectacle

2) a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision

[Gina]

Continuing.  (Sorry, I had an additional thought or two.)

Peter and the others were not in, or a part of, the vision they only witnessed the vision, which God showed them.  Only Jesus and Elijah and Moses and the voice out of heaven, were in the vision.  The disciples were literally taken up to a mountain by Jesus, where Jesus transformed in appearance to them in such a manner (and Moses and Elijah appeared also -- who, as JFK pointed out--were dead, not alive):

And the disciples were apparently caught up in ecstasy when they saw the vision:

* Syn: ECSTASY , RAPTURE , TRANSPORT , EXALTATION share a sense of being taken out of oneself or one's normal state and entering a state of heightened feeling. ECSTASY suggests an emotion so overpowering as to produce a trancelike state: religious ecstasy; an ecstasy of grief. RAPTURE most often refers to an elevated sensation of bliss or delight, either carnal or spiritual: the rapture of first love. TRANSPORT suggests a strength of feeling that often results in expression of some kind: in a transport of delight. EXALTATION refers to a heady sense of personal well-being so powerful that one is lifted above normal emotional levels: wild exaltation at having finally broken the record.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.


That's where the vision ends.


7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

8 And when they [the disciples] had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they  [Jesus, Peter, etc.] came down from the mountain, Jesus [not a vision of Jesus] charged them, saying, Tell the vision [they had just witnessed] to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Hopefully that helps a little.

Just out of curiosity, why do you ask?

[cheekie3]

" shorty " -

I asked as I am not convinced that Jesus' Transfiguration was part of the Vision - as I believe the way the Scriptural wording is - it could be that Jesus' was Transfigured; and then Moses and Elijah appeared in a Vision.

Regards, George.

[Gina]

John 8:17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true.

2 Corinthians 13:1  By the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter will be established



But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' (Matthew 18:16)

(Matthew 26:60) But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two came forward[/b]

(Hebrews 10:28) Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Deuteronomy 17:6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness[/u].

Here's what I find interesting.  (Pardon me for hijacking your thread.)

You have Moses (first witness? Who came with "the Law"), you have Elijah/John the Baptist (a second witness?) and then you have "A Voice" (a [third?] witness from "heaven").

As far as the pharisees, etc., were concerned, Jesus rejected the Law of Moses and so He died without mercy.


Matthew 17:9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

Today I started to wonder why they weren't allowed to tell the vision to any man until Jesus was raised from the dead?  But that's beside the point.



Matthew 17:10 The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"

11 Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things.

12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished.  In the same way  the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."

13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

[darren]

We know punctuation was not used when the writers of the O.T  and the N.T. wrote the books of the Bible. Jesus told the thief: I tell you this day you will be with me in paradise. This Scripture could be  understood two different ways. We can take this scripture as written. At the moment of the death of this  man, he will b in paradise  with Jesus. Or It could b read like this: I tell you this today,,(coma) you will b with me in paradise. Since we know no one is in paradise after death except Jesus and His paradise is at the right hand of His Father. Everybody else that has died past, present. or future will have to wait until judgement, Since God's Word (Jesus) The Word. Does not lie. nor contradicts, then this Scripture must be read and understood with a coma after the word today. As written and spoken by Jesus: I tell you this today,  you will b with Me in paradise.