Did Jesus become a Curse on the cross?

[gerard_dsouza]

I need some help here. there are two teaching that is floating around Christian circles that states:
1) Jesus became Sin for us so that we can be made righteous. repeat he became Sin not a Sin Offering - This point Ray shed some light in his audio messages
2) Jesus became a curse for us

The first one I can explain stating that the correct translation should be Sin offering and the problem is solved.
2 Cor. 5: 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him

Corrected version - 2 Cor. 5: 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be a sin offering on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him
This corrected version solves this issue. And kills this BLASPHEMOUS doctrine. It was never meant to say Jesus became Sin on our behalf, but became s Sin Offering on our behalf.
This I guess all will agree? Let me know.

The second point I am struggling to comprehend.
This is in Galations 3: 13 
Gal 3: 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

This is what was written in the law:

Deut 21: 23: 23 phis body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is cursed by God. You shall not defile your land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance.

Jesus never remained all night on a tree, he was buried the same day. What is this saying, Jesus cannot be a curse as he never sinned.
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Galatians 3: 10: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Deut 27:26:  26 'Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen.'
We would be cursed I understand and Jesus took the curse by being a sin Offering. But it makes no sense to me, what purpose would Jesus being a curse for us and how would be a curse as he never even sinned by breaking Deut 21: 23.

Now why does Jesus need to be a curse and what way be became a curse.
This is a puzzle for me. What is written in Galatians 3: 13 "being made a curse for us" - what does this mean and how did this happen.

Can anyone share their study on this point. The implication that I see deliverance teachers take this to extreme and claim redemption from all curses. Sounds to me some sort of sorcery? I could be wrong.

[Kat]

Hi Gerry,

Just as we are all sinners and Christ became a sin offering on our behalf, so it is of the curse.

Gal 3:10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

We are all cursed by the law in we could never obey it perfectly. So Christ "having become a curse FOR us."  He was a "sin offering" FOR us, just like He bore the curse FOR us, but was certainly not cursed.

Gal 3:13  Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),

To fulfill prophecy of the curse, Jesus was crucified, and so hang on the tree as it states in Deuteronomy.

Deu 21:22-23  "If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed (many translations have cursed) of God.

The curse is against all sinners, all mankind, all have sinned and are guilty before God. Jesus Christ was not a curse, He did it FOR us, not Himself. 

1Cor 12:3: Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

This phrase of being "accursed/cursed of God," show that He endured the full penalty of the law and bore the curse of the law for us, thus satisfied the law.

Titus 2:14  who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

2Co 5:19  to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses,

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law and sin, so redeemed us from all iniquity and by which we have justification, pardon that we can receive adoption and life.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[gerard_dsouza]

Thanks Kat.

What you are saying makes sense.

"Gal 3:10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

We are all cursed by the law in we could never obey it perfectly. So Christ "having become a curse FOR us."  He was a "sin offering" FOR us, just like He bore the curse FOR us, but was certainly not cursed."

This I can agree with. What is the implication of this. I am not sure if you are familiar with what happens in Charismatic circles, they claim promises and try to make it their own.
So if they are cursed due to some disobedience. they claim being whole by simply saying Jesus redeemed me from the curse of the law and I am not cursed now. They in many instance never address the issue of what makes them cursed.
All that goes in deliverance session on curses. Do you have any opinion on that.

regards, Gerry

[Nathan]

What is the implication of this. I am not sure if you are familiar with what happens in Charismatic circles, they claim promises and try to make it their own. So if they are cursed due to some disobedience. they claim being whole by simply saying Jesus redeemed me from the curse of the law and I am not cursed now. They in many instance never address the issue of what makes them cursed. All that goes in deliverance session on curses. Do you have any opinion on that.

regards, Gerry

One of the common themes in Charismatic circles and all of Christendom for that matter, is "claiming" things that Scripture clearly shows are future rewards and/or ongoing processes, as if they have already been fulfilled. For example, say a 10 second "sinner's prayer" and you can then "claim" you are "saved" as opposed to what we read in Scripture that salvation is an ongoing process and a future manifestation (ie "the hope of salvation", "he who endures to the end shall be saved", etc.). They make verbal claims on things that they themselves should be working out - they talk their walk as opposed to walking their walk. They believe that by simply acknowledging that Jesus overcame the world, they can "claim" that they too have already overcome and thus there is no need to overcome to the end - just claim it.

They seem to apply this logic to everything imaginable. Repentance has been reduced to a one time prayer as opposed to an ongoing turning away of anything and everything that needs to be turned away from. These "claims" are just lip service, but to run ones own race, he or she must walk it, not talk it. Many of these will be "claiming" that they did all sorts of wonderful things in Jesus' name on judgment day only to hear the four words, "I never knew you".

Gerry, having grown up in Charismatic type churches, I know what you are referring to when you talk about how they make "claims" on just about everything, their "deliverance sessions", etc - in my opinion, it's all carnal, hocus pocus. "I plead the blood of Jesus..." (is there chapter and verse to back that claim up, NO). Of course, there's also the "name it, claim it" crowd that will lay claim on anything their heart desires.

I guess in an age where "the hope of salvation" and "enduring/overcoming to the end" are considered blasphemy, one can claim just about anything.

[Kat]

Gerry, I think Nathan gave a very good answer for you. Someone having the experience to back up an answer is always of value and I believe the reason we are all of such diverse backgrounds.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[gerard_dsouza]

Thanks Nathan,
There is so many promises made by Jesus to his 12 disciples, like they can tread on serpents and if they are bitten by them nothing will happen to them. Paul was bitten by serpents and he did not die, I agree, but ne did not sit their and claim any promise, he just received from God what God wanted him to experience by God's Grace.

Having said this, we cannot have this kind of promise applied to us till it is spoken to us by Jesus. So in a sense all promises cannot be claimed by us unless we hear from God. When we hear from God is it not about claiming but receiving.

I see this analogy as a person speaking and demanding God, because he has written this. We can even hear their attitudes when they speak and shout out promises to God to do as if he is a person who has to obey them. From healing to everything and also deliverance and also money. It is really bizarre and they cannot see their arrogance. All this is the spirit of rebellion and equivalent to witchcraft in my opinion. What do you think.

Yes we can pray for all things and that also in private and in a spirit of meekness and poverty. God will be more interested in this attitude than a attitude of claiming his Word. So we understand that Jesus can forgive us, we do not sit and claim forgiveness, but ask for forgiveness. So much different attitude. Claiming does not represent faith. But praying and believing that we will receive what we are praying from based on what God has promised he will do, if we fulfil the condition of the promise, even like forgiveness of sins.
Just my thoughts. What do you think? Open to different opinion.
Gerry

[Nathan]

Gerry, in my opinion, much of what you've brought up goes back to "free will". How many Christians are truly seeking the will of the Father when they pray? The belief, by many, that we have a "free will" is also manifested in the way that many pray and make claims on Scriptural promises. It's MY will be done as opposed to THY will be done. Of course, they say they are simply laying claim to promises that are promised to them, but our Father knows our heart. How about the promise that followers of Yahshua/Jesus will suffer persecution?

All this is the spirit of rebellion and equivalent to witchcraft in my opinion. What do you think.

Yes, there is definitely a demonic element that permeates throughout the Charismatic churches. From the crazy, incoherent babblings (speaking in "tongues") to being "slain in the spirit", the fake healings, false prophecy, etc. - it's a counterfeit spirit. I think they believe the louder they scream out the promises they lay claim on, the faster THEIR will will be done. It reminds me of the prophets of Baal in Elijah's day.

On the other end of the spectrum, churches like the one Joel Olsteen runs, seem to be nothing more than motivational speaking seminars. The essence of motivational speaking is to believe in SELF and to WILL things into existence. Regardless of the denomination, they all want to define God's will on their terms as opposed to acknowledging that all things are subjected to His will and His WILL will be done.

[The Professor]

What I don't understand is that some people read one verse, ONE VERSE, and go about claiming things because of that single verse.

When, if they just sat down and studied the rest of the Scriptures they would see that the one verse from which they make all these claims from is inconsistent with everything else.

Like "II Cor. 5: 21" for example. Jesus never mentioned any of the sort in the canonical Gospels, in fact it's the contrary, but of course for some, this is all ignored.

With things like these I remember what Ray said concerning spiritual matches and witnesses...

God's most important messages are constantly repeated throughout..."He who has ears, let him hear..." (Matt 11:15, Rev 2:29).

[loretta]

As I now understand, Christ died for the sins of ALL the world.  He became a sin offering, bearing our punishment ( and curse under the law of the OT ) thus ushering in the New Covenant of grace.  My question is, are we all under grace; believers, unbelievers, the called and the elect ?  Are the blessings and curses under the Old Covenant irrelevant now?  What then did Jesus mean when he said,

Mt 5: 17-18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[Kat]

Hi Loretta,
I have put together some places where Ray taught on this, it's good to review these things from time to time.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4826.0.html --------------

Hi Ray, in your article you state the covenant changed but not the law and sight Heb 8:7-9 as absolute proof that there needed a change of covenant not the law of the covenant. But Heb 7:12 says that of necessity the priesthood changed so the law must change. And according to Duer 4:13 doesn't the old covenant include the 10 commandments. And also if do not be angry with a brother added spirit to thou shalt not murder by getting at the root cause doesn't that make one law carnal (murder) and the other (not be angry) spiritual. Thanks Ray, confused loyal fan.    Nelson


Dear Nelson:  The change in the law regards who can be a priest. Under the Old Covenant one had to be of the line of Aaron/Levi. Under the New Covenant that has been changed so that Jesus Christ can be our High Priest Who was born of the line of Judah/David.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6442.0.html -----

The OLD LAW was and still is "spiritual."  "For we know that the LAW [the one they always had] IS SPIRITUAL" (Rom. 7:14).


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Beginning with Verse 17 we read:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Why would Jesus ever suggest that His disciples would think that He came to destroy the law or the prophets? Well, for one thing, because He appears in the next few verses to contradict what the law and the prophets had to say, and therefore, this could be a logical deduction that Jesus was doing away with the law of Moses. The primary law of the Covenant God made with Israel consisted of the Ten Commandments:

"And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even ten commandments and He wrote them upon two tables of stone" (Deut. 4:13).

However, there were approximately 613 laws contained in the law and the prophets, and Jesus makes references to several of them which are not contained in the Ten Commandments.

In fact, Jesus made a big deal about teaching the very laws that He did not come to destroy, plus a new and higher application of those laws:

"...but whosoever shall do and teach them [the very least law], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:19-20).
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Jesus said, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Matt. 5:18). Is heaven and earth still here? Even if we take "heaven and earth" to be solely a symbolic term, still, heaven and earth has not spiritually passed away from humanity.


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You are not distinguishing between things that differ as the Scriptures admonish us.

It seems hardly anyone knows that "fulfill means." Jesus said that he "fulfilled" the LAW, yet it is taught today in the Church that it YET needs to be fulfilled BY US. What is that?  I have never heard a minister yet put the parts of Christ declaration together:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law OR THE PROPHETS: I am not come to destroy, [the law AND THE PROPHETS], but to fulfill [the law AND THE PROPHETS]" (Matt. 5:17).

Now then, did Jesus Christ "fulfill" all of the prophecies concerning Him? Well if He did, then does there REMAIN any that He DID NOT FULFILL? Then why doesn't anyone, it seems, believe that He also and in the very same way fulfilled "the law?"

We are now under a NEW COVENANT and Hebrews 8 tells us that this NEW covenant is NOT IN ACCORD with the OLD covenant.

The Pharisees kept the old testament law of Moses with its ten commandments. But Jesus said that WE, Believers, must FAR EXCEED the righteousness of the Pharisees. Jesus gave us NEW COMMANDMENTS that are far superior to the old law. Christ's laws are SPIRITUAL laws. The Old Covenant which really IS "the ten commandments" (See Deut. 4:13) was an administration of DEATH. The laws were of the letter (death) not of the spirit (life). See II Cor. 3.

Under the Old Covenant you were to HATE YOUR ENEMIES. Under the New we are to LOVE OUR ENEMIES. Love your enemies is not a slight modification of hating your enemies.  Not lusting after a woman is not a slight modification of not committing physical intercourse with a married woman. NOT SWEARING is not a slight modification of swearing!  Etc. Can you see this? Under the old covenant one was to love his neighbor as himself. Under the new we are to esteem our neighbor HIGHER than ourselves. Do you see the difference?


http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html  --------------

           CHRIST AFTER THE FLESH VERSUS CHRIST AFTER THE SPIRIT

"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after [according to] the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, YET NOW HENCEFORTH KNOW WE HIM NO MORE [after the flesh]" (II Cor. 5:1).

"Therefore if any man be IN Christ, he is a new creature [creation]: old things are passed away; behold ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW" (II Cor. 5:17)!

How many Christians believe that "IN Christ" we are a NEW creation and that ALL the old things have passed away and that ALL things are become NEW? How many pastors teach the NEW Covenant?

Christians sing: "Give me that OLD TIME religion—it's good enough for me."

There was an OLD covenant, and now there is a NEW covenant. Do you know what the NEW COVENANT is? Theologians teach that the New covenant is keeping the OLD covenant, BETTER! That is unscriptural nonsense! They teach that we are to keep the law of Moses, BETTER, and we will fulfill the NEW testament.

Is the New Covenant patterned according to the Old Covenant? Let's read it:

"For finding fault with them, He says, Behold, the days come says the Lord, when I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah [he is a JEW who is circumcised in his heart and spirit, Rom. 2:29]: NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT that I made with their fathers..." (Heb. 8:8-9).

So then, is the NEW covenant "according" or "NOT according" to the Old covenant?

Then why does the Church continue making the Old Covenant binding on Christians?

Christendom is attempting to believe in the New Covenant, while at the same time trying to live in the Old Covenant. This can't be done. In fact, Jesus sternly warned against attempting to do such a contradictory and damaging endeavor:

"And He [Jesus] spoke also a parable unto them [the Pharisees]: No man puts a piece of new garment upon an old: if otherwise, then both the new makes a rent [tear], and the piece that was taken out of the new agrees not with the old ['NOT according with the covenant which I made with their fathers (the OLD Covenant, Heb. 8:9)]. And no man puts new wine into old bottles [wineskins]; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish [be RUINED]. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. No man also having drunk old wine straightway desires new; for he says, The OLD is better" (Luke 5:36-39).

This is a parable! Jesus is speaking of the Old and New Covenants. We cannot, we dare not, try to put the old with the new. BOTH WILL BE RUINED! Why don't we believe Jesus? We can't put the Old and the New together. And true to Jesus' words, when people come into a knowledge of the New Covenant, they PREFER THE OLD BETTER!

Did you also notice that when we put these two covenants in their proper places (the Old is for babes to bring them to Christ, while the new is for those maturing into Sonship), that they are BOTH PRESERVED? Yes, both are preserved, but only if we don't MIX THEM. Could anything be clearer.

The "Chosen" live by the New Covenant: The "Called" try to live by the New and the Old Covenants. They have never learned this simple lesson: "No servant can serve TWO masters..." (Luke 16:13). The two covenants are not even in "according" with one another—they are not to be "unequally yoked together," seeing that they are not equal. If you want to be a New Testament Christian, then you need to learn and know what the New Testament is all about.
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                     WHAT IS THE PURPOSE FOR THE MOSAIC LAW?

Can boys become men on their mother's milk? Neither can men become spiritually mature on things of childhood. Paul said when he was a child, he thought and acted as a child, but when he became a man, he said he put away childish things. The Christian Church today refuses to put away childish things. Here is the purpose for the Law of Moses in the Church:

"Wherefore the law was [it was now past tense for Paul because he had matured] our schoolmaster [Gk: tutor or guardian] to BRING US UNTO CHRIST, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come [faith HAS now come] we are NO LONGER under a schoolmaster [the law of Moses]" (Gal. 3:24-25).

How is it that all the educated theologians with all their PhD's can't understand this simple analogy. The law—the law of Moses, was our "schoolmaster." It WAS, it isn't any more. Why not? Because mature adults are no longer children. We have all had schoolmaster in our youth. We were under them, subject to them, disciplined by them, taught by them. I am now 62 years old. Am I still under my grade school teachers? Of course not. Do I, however, try to remember the things I learned from my teacher? Why yes, of course. But as a man I am now subject to higher authorities. A person will never acquire a college degree if he never gets out of grade school.

What happens to those who are so foolish as to think that they should remain forever in grade school under a tutor/schoolmaster?

"Now I say, That the heir [the potential, prospective, heir to the kingdom of God in the first resurrection], as long as he is A CHILD [wants to remain a minor under the Old Covenant Law of Moses] differs NOTHING FROM A SERVANT, though he be lord of all; but is under tutors and governors UNTIL the time appointed of the father" (Gal. 4:1-2).

Do you follow this? An heir to the Kingdom of God, as long as he does not mature, will never inherit his Father's Kingdom, but is in no better position that a "servant" who will never be heir to his master's household! Let them who have ears to hear, HEAR. You cannot mature on mother's milk. The Church furnishes mother's milk to children and corrupts their minds with "the DEPTHS of Satan." We must "come out of her" if we are to be God's people.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4115.0.html -----------

   It is not wrong to study the "Law" portions of Scripture. If, however, you think that you need to "keep" the law as ancient Israel attempted to do, you will accomplish very little. The reason for this is because "The LAW IS SPIRITUAL....." (Rom. 7:14).  ONLY  "Christ is the end [the goal, result, purpose, conclusion] of the law for righteousness in every one that believes" (Rom. 10:4). NO orthodox Jew can keep the law of God WITHOUT CHRIST! This is a lesson they will yet have to learn in Judgment.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[gerard_dsouza]

Kat
I agree with what you mentioned below on law. None of this is done away, it may have changed its form, especially for offering and sacrifices as now we have them as spiritual sacrifices.

Another thought, we do not tithe, but in a spiritual sense, we should tithe what we receive from the Lord as abundance in spiritual as it is like extra abundant food we received. So we have spiritual sacrifices, and we continue to have an attitude of giving. Giving to churches and institutions do not make sense, as we are to share to widow and orphans and the poor. Our brothers and sisters who are poor spiritually, so that they may grow to be wealthy spiritually.

[loretta]

tks very much Kat, for those links to Ray's teachings.  You're right, it bears remembering the foundational truths that Ray so painstakingly exposited.  I now understand more than ever that for the elect, the law is spiritual, meat for our spiritual growth.

Do you follow this? An heir to the Kingdom of God, as long as he does not mature, will never inherit his Father's Kingdom, but is in no better position that a "servant" who will never be heir to his master's household! Let them who have ears to hear, HEAR. You cannot mature on mother's milk. The Church furnishes mother's milk to children and corrupts their minds with "the DEPTHS of Satan." We must "come out of her" if we are to be God's peopl

But what Gerry wrote about curses, got me wondering about the world and the called.  As he pointed out, in charismatic and religious circles, there is much talk about curses and deliverance activity.  While they are wrong in the naming and claiming game, are they right about the curses? Or are we all, post the crucifixion, under grace and God's sovereign hand.  The reason I ask, is because often, we look around and see people (not the elect) burdened or afflicted and we conclude that they are under a curse, a generational curse.

[gerard_dsouza]

Ezekiel 18 New International Version (NIV)
The One Who Sins Will Die
18 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
"'The parents eat sour grapes,
    and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.

Looking at this verse we can see that the generation curse concept is not passed on from father to son. I know there is a lot of teaching on this and incidents people show from their parents being passed on to the children in deliverance meetings and sessions.
I believe a Father can curse his son or daughter and make them come under a curse because the Father has authority over his children and so can a mother. A husband can bring a curse onto a wife, we see incidents like this in some passages in scriptures.
In a spiritual sense, we can have these curses operating from generation to generation as the parents continue in the bad deeds of the parents but cursing their children.

Can anyone share what they see in Ezek 18: 1 to 3?

[onelovedread]

Is there a matching scripture?

[gerard_dsouza]

No I do not see any matching scripture from my understanding. Also the scripture, does not state explicitly that the generation curse is done away with.
It shows on the verses that follow examples of Son can be different from his Father and does not have to be impacted by his Father's spiritual life.
Since there does not seem to be a clear scripture and also no double witness. We can say that the principle of the generation curse is probably continuing.
Anyone has any clarification in this matter?
I do know that curses do continue and operate around us and they are real.

[Kat]

Hi Loretta,

are they right about the curses? Or are we all, post the crucifixion, under grace and God's sovereign hand.  The reason I ask, is because often, we look around and see people (not the elect) burdened or afflicted and we conclude that they are under a curse, a generational curse.

What is a generational curse? I suppose they get this idea from Scripture such as these.

Exo 20:5  you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Exo 34:7  keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation."

Deu 5:9  you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,

As Gerry was saying if a father/parent has a wicked lifestyle, then his children are likely to perpetuate that same behavior problems that they have learned from the parent, therefore you have generational sinning. So these sins brings about generational repercussions.

Psa 7:14  Behold, the wicked brings forth iniquity;
       Yes, he conceives trouble and brings forth falsehood.
v.15  He made a pit and dug it out,
       And has fallen into the ditch which he made.
v. 16  His trouble shall return upon his own head,
       And his violent dealing shall come down on his own crown. 

You see there can develop a vicious cycle from generation after generation of sinful living and the consequences of that and just the same for today. And of course the church always has to find a blame for their sins and problems. But this spoken of in Exodus and Deuteronomy was part of the Old Testament Law, Israel fell into idolatry time and time again and God warned them over and over what would happen.

Jdg 3:7  So the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD. They forgot the LORD their God, and served the Baals and Asherahs.
v.8  Therefore the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and He sold them into the hand of Cushan-Rishathaim king of Mesopotamia; and the children of Israel served Cushan-Rishathaim eight years.

So yes God did promise to visit Israel's sin upon the third and fourth generations as He knew they would repeat the sins of the fathers... but He also delivered them when they cried out.

Jdg 3:9  When the children of Israel cried out to the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer for the children of Israel, who delivered them:

Even when He announced "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children" He also followed that up by showing how endless His mercy was as well, for those not doing evil.

Exo 20:6  but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Deu 5:10  but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Hope this helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[gerard_dsouza]

Hi John,
I can assure you I am not interested in bringing false teaching. I been struggling to understand clearly on this matter for some time.
All I stated clearly that Curses are not a thing of the past. It is real. I do not know for sure about generations curse.

The scriptures only states the obvious that the person who sins will die. It is not expounding on curses and its being done away.

As for generation curse: I only mentioned it in the aspect of Father can curse his son or daughter by his words and it can have an impact on the person. Because the Father and Mother are authority on their children. Similarly husbands can curse their wives and that can impact them.

If you are so sure on this, please show me a clear teaching on this. I have no real opinion on this, only that I want to believe what you are saying, if I had my way. But I want to fear God and know if God has a clear word on this and not assume.

John, show me a teaching of Ray on this topic clearly, I searched and I could not find one clearly.
I am no authority on this. I was only sharing a opinion on what I see in scriptures.

[Nathan]

Gerry, there are no scriptures that state that a wife or child can be cursed by the behavior of a father or husband. If you look at the scriptures that Kat posted which are constantly taken out of context by the majority of Christendom to prove that there are indeed generational curses, you will see the plain truth of the matter.

Exodus 20:5,6 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation OF THEM THAT HATE ME; And showing mercy unto thousands of THEM THAT LOVE ME, and keep my commandments.

The iniquity visited upon the children unto the third and fourth generation are only on those that hate Him, NOT those that love him. A child is not cursed by the actions or behavior of a father and therefore, by default, MUST hate God and be cursed by him. Are children influenced by the behavior of their parents? yes and no - it depends. Are they cursed? NO.

Deu 5:9,10  Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

This scripture is the same as the previous.

Exo 34:6,7

And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means CLEAR THE GUILTY; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

This passage is worded a little differently than the other two, however it has the exact same implications. Our Father is merciful to the "innocent" and only visits iniquity on the guilty. One is not guilty because some curse was handed down to them by their father or father's father. One is guilty only if he or she is guilty of their own accord and not some inherited "generational curse".

[gerard_dsouza]

Hi John,
This is what I see operating.
In Proverbs 26:2 the writer of Proverbs makes a very important statement. He says: "Like a flitting sparrow, like a flying swallow, so a curse without cause shall not alight." In other words, if there's a curse there's always a cause.

One incident of a curse on his wife, he did not bless his wife, this showed the impact David had on his wife Michal, by his words, it was fulfilled exactly and Michal was could never get together with David, and also never had children.2 Samuel 6: 20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, going around half-naked in full view of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!" 21 David said to Michal, "It was before the Lord, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the Lord's people Israel—I will celebrate before the Lord. 22 I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor." 23 And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.

Here is a scripture that shows the blessing of Isaac to Esau, which was not as good as that given to Jacob. This is what came out of Isaac mouth and it impacted his son. It fulfilled the destiny of his son, which was not as great as given to his other son. This shows the authority of the Father.
Gen 27: 38 Esau said to his father, "Do you have only one blessing, my father? Bless me too, my father!" Then Esau wept aloud. 39 His father Isaac answered him, "Your dwelling will be away from the earth's richness,    away from the dew of heaven above. 40 You will live by the sword and you will serve your brother. But when you grow restless, you will throw his yoke from off your neck." 41 Esau held a grudge against Jacob because of the blessing his father had given him. He said to himself, "The days of mourning for my father are near; then I will kill my brother Jacob."

You stated: "The iniquity visited upon the children unto the third and fourth generation are only on those that hate Him, NOT those that love him. A child is not cursed by the actions or behavior of a father and therefore, by default, MUST hate God and be cursed by him. Are children influenced by the behavior of their parents? yes and no - it depends. Are they cursed? NO. "

Paul who had some spiritual authority in churches like Corinthians, sent a curse on the person who committed immortality
I Cor 5:  1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Nathan, you stated here: you say iniquities are operating for those who hate him and not those who love him.
I agree to this. Now for us who love the Lord, we can break free from the curses of our Fathers, who are called by God by his will not our own. God has to free us from everything and he has to will and desire that this happens to us. You at same time agree that a curse operates on those who hate him, again this is all because the Lord wants that to be the case. He is sovereign in all this. We don't really have a free will. It looks like we can make choices, but we cannot influence all that is happening against us to disobey God and thus come under a curse. Show me a clear scripture that Christians do not have any curses operating on them at all, and I be glad to receive that truth.
We all are under Grace, not only divine intervention on our heart, but also mercy.

John, having said this, I really am not interested in proving any point here. I showed how curses or impacts that negative in nature are operated by the authority above us.

[gerard_dsouza]

Thanks John, now you convinced me. I now see where my error is.
What would be the point for God to give ability to husband to curse their wife and that should work and so with Parents to place curse on children. Curses come from the Lord for disobedience and hating God.
Besides the above scriptures are incidents and not scripture principles as Laws are. So I agree I have no scripture.
So Ezek 18 was trying to correct the very error in understanding of what people are stating. That there are curses being passed on, which come to think about it is not what is stated. Iniquities are visited to children of father's who hate God and not any curses, as the word curses are not stated there.

Nathan you tried making you point and now I see your point. The word generation curse as a statement is never mentioned in scripture.
Its been inferred by Christians by the word visiting iniquities of those who hate the Lord on to their generations.

John, what is the implication of visiting the iniquities on generation down, what is its impact in spiritual basis. Is it the children will have a tendency to fall into same error as their fathers, due to wrong example and wrong guidance? Could you expand on this from your understanding.