Was America ever really a nation under God?

[Addison]

I heard Ray say in one of his lecture videos that is posted on YouTube that we (The U.S.A.) used to be a nation under God and then he said something like "I don't know what we are anymore though". I wish I could remember which video it was otherwise I'd link to it.

Anyway, I don't see how this could be true considering...

"...for by thy sorceries were ALL NATIONS deceived"
Revelation 18:22-24

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD..." (Rev. 12:9).

"Again, the Devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 And he said to Him, "I will give You all these things if You will fall down and worship me." (Matt 4:8-9)


In Ray's paper "The Lucifer Hoax and the Mission of Satan" he states:

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed [Why? Why are their eyes 'closed?' Because, "the god of this world has BLINDED... them..." That's why] lest at ANY TIME they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should BE CONVERTED, and I should HEAL them" (Matt. 13:15).

We coin the phrase, "In God We Trust," and parrot the phrase, "One Nation Under God," but how can that be, seeing that we have just read in the Scriptures that all the kingdoms of this world belong to Satan who has blinded the minds of these same nations. Now surely someone will say, "But Mr. Smith, Satan has blinded the minds of only those who 'believe not.'" Well, if they are not blinded, then they will believe the above Scriptures that say Satan is the god of this world and Satan owns all the nations of this world! But the so-called "believers" don't really "believe" the Scriptures that I just quoted, DO THEY? No, of course they don't. Do you see how God's Word is a "two-edged sword?"



So how can Ray say that we, the U.S.A., were once a nation "under God" and then say "but how can that be [that we are a "Nation under God"], seeing that we have just read in the Scriptures that all the kingdoms of this world belong to Satan" ?

And in his 9/11 paper he implies that the attack was a judgment against our nation, and I can definitely understand why he believes that. In fact, I am the first to tell you that I am afraid that an even more severe judgment is imminent on America... with all the weather that is getting out of control, and the fragileness of our economy, and war and regional conflicts that we are getting involved with... it all seems like a recipe for disaster, but I won't get in to all of that.

Anyway, anyone can clearly see that America has especially been blessed with great wealth (Ray details this quite nicely in his 9/11 paper), but I just have a hard time agreeing that America could have ever been a nation under God- When was this? Anyone who takes a look at our nation's history can see times of division, war, slavery, I definitely can't think of a time when we have ever "loved our enemies", etc.

Nevermind the fact that most of our nation's current wealth is debt-financed anyway... our corrupt monetary system has enabled us to have a debt-based currency so we are able to have this "we'll pay it off later" mentality which has allowed to enter in to wars (that we would have never otherwise been able to afford), provide generous entitlements to seniors (which we also don't technically have the money to do), take on massive infrastructure projects, etc., etc. And this is the precise reason why our nation is in 17 TRILLION dollars of DEBT. So yes, we have the treasures of wealth, but have attained much of this wealth dishonestly. If someone thinks I'm wrong about that, then please explain why.

I can understand the symbolism that Ray points out in his paper (like the towers representing wealth that happened to be in the city that represents our nation's wealth)- but why is 9/11 considered a judgment and not, say, the attack on Pearl Harbor?

I don't want to make this too long, but I think you understand the gist of what I am getting at.

Addison

[Dave in Tenn]

Just for history and for other-than-Americans, the words "under God" were added to the pledge of allegiance in the mid 1950's.  No, that's not a typo...the mid NINETEEN-FIFTIES.  Presumably, before then "we" were either "one nation indivisible" or "one nation not under God", depending on your viewpoint.

Could be (and I believe was) that Ray was using a bit of sarcasm with that statement.

A gentle reminder:  we won't let this topic veer into anything like partisan politics.   

[Addison]

Just for history and for other-than-Americans, the words "under God" were added to the pledge of allegiance in the mid 1950's.  No, that's not a typo...the mid NINETEEN-FIFTIES.

Could be (and I believe was) that Ray was using a bit of sarcasm with that statement.   

Yeah, I wouldn't use the word "sarcastic" but maybe it was "tongue-in-cheek".

However, he states many times that America (and other nations) are CHRISTIAN NATIONS. But how can we be "Christian nations" if all nations are deceived by Satan?

In his 9/11 paper he states:


"...(the Christian nations of Northwestern Europe, Australia, South America, Canada, and AMERICA)"

and

"As we have seen in Jeremiah, God will punish ALL NATIONS, but the Christian Nations will be the first to fall"

Although he does point out that they may be "Christian" but that doesn't mean "Christ-like". But why are we Christian nations? Because the majority supposedly calls themselves Christian? So if a nation has less than 50% of its population that proclaim to be Christian than that nation won't be one of the first to fall?

My point is that if they aren't Christ-like, then why even bother calling them Christian nations? Jesus said "why do you call me Lord, Lord and don't do what I say?" (Luke 6:46)

He claims that the Christian nations of Northwestern Europe, Australia, South America, Canada, and AMERICA are Israel/God's chosen. So the small percentage of those who call themselves Christian in places like Iraq/Iran/Saudi Arabia, etc. AREN'T in this group of God's people, but those who call themselves Christian but aren't actually Christ-like but happen to live in countries that are predominantly Christian are God's chosen? Huh?

A gentle reminder:  we won't let this topic veer into anything like partisan politics.   

I agree that we shouldn't, and I don't know why we would. I don't even vote, personally. So I don't know why anyone might think I'm trying to make any kind of a political statement.

[Dave in Tenn]

Addison, how can we call the Christian Churches that, knowing that they are both the deceived and the pulpit of the deceivers?  The more "Christian" a nation, the more under the influence of the synagogue of Satan.  Are the churches "under God"? 

In a certain sense, it may be a 'commendation' to be called a "christian nation"...at least 'we' aren't the heathen...but in another sense, 'we' share the hypocrisy of the churches that have 'ruled' over us. 

Judgement begins in the house of God.

Just to note:  by some estimates there are currently more professing Christians in China than in the Unites States, though not as a percentage of the population.  Other continents and nations have their own history and current relationship with Christendom.  None are righteous...no, not one.   

[microlink]

Real good comments Dave. Thanks!

[Addison]

Addison, how can we call the Christian Churches that, knowing that they are both the deceived and the pulpit of the deceivers?  The more "Christian" a nation, the more under the influence of the synagogue of Satan.  Are the churches "under God"? 

In a certain sense, it may be a 'commendation' to be called a "christian nation"...at least 'we' aren't the heathen...but in another sense, 'we' share the hypocrisy of the churches that have 'ruled' over us. 

Judgement begins in the house of God.

Just to note:  by some estimates there are currently more professing Christians in China than in the Unites States, though not as a percentage of the population.  Other continents and nations have their own history and current relationship with Christendom.  None are righteous...no, not one.

Wow, Dave. Thanks a lot. I really feel like I am coming closer to an understanding of this. Let me see if I understand this correctly:

I just read Rev. 18, and a couple verses caught my eye.

because all the nations were deceived
by your sorcery,[q]
24 and the blood of prophets and saints,
and of all those slaughtered on earth,
was found in you.[r]

I originally was going to reply back to your comment: "

The more "Christian" a nation, the more under the influence of the synagogue of Satan. 

" with something like "So America is more under the influence of Satan than, say, a corrupt and destitute country like Somalia or somewhere?" But (if I understand this correctly) the answer to that question is "yes" because we can blame the ungodliness of the heathen world on the heresies that come out of the church (which are most abundant in America and a few other countries especially in the west) which have such a major influence on most of the world. Do I have this correct?

For all the nations have drunk[d]
the wine of her sexual immorality,
which brings wrath. (Rev 18:3)

"All the nations"- this includes Somalia, Democratic Republic of Congo, Sudan, etc.
"The wine of her sexual immorality" - the bad teachings of "Christianity"- which predominantly come out of the powerful nations like the U.S. and therefore have the most influence over the world.

So we can place some of the blame for the the ungodliness of the heathen world on Babylon/God's people/The Church (which, again, happens to have the most power and influence in our nation and a few others). If the church hadn't become a dwelling for demons (Rev 18:3) then maybe the world wouldn't be so "drunk" (corrupt).

Do I understand this?

[Dave in Tenn]

I think you have it correct.  It isn't that "the nations without the law" (and the people within them)  are without excuse themselves, but those who have been "given much" are required much, and those who "teach" are accountable for those who learn.

The world is a very, very complex place.  The tangle of religion, ideology, philosophy, etc. is so convoluted (especially today with such wide-spread contact and flow of information) that only God can untangle it.  We have faith that He has, is, and ultimately will, and are instructed to pray like this:  Thy Kingdom come.  Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.  WHEN His judgments are in the earth, the people will learn righteousness. 

We're pretty darn complex even as individuals, and the are perfectly capable ourselves of being convoluted messes of religion, ideology, philosophy, etc.  I hope it is happening in US...and I don't mean the United States. 

A little salt and a little light does a lot of good.  But if the "light" is darkness, and if the "salt" has lost its savor, well...I don't need to finish the sentence here.

Do good. 

[se7en]

"...for by thy sorceries were ALL NATIONS deceived"
Revelation 18:22-24

Great stuff all, don't forget Ray's commendation that the whole book of revelation is SIGNAFIED. It's a symbol. And Ray's 11th rule for understanding scripture. It's all for our admonition for my age, for me. It's personal.

The nations are all the nations in me. I was completley deceived! While in the babylon church I thought I was eating meat and had it all figured out and everything was going my way... I didn't realize I was blind, and naked! ALL NATIONS are all the buildings and empires and doctrines I put up and worshiped.

I'm not saying that this doesn't have a physical type, but the spiritual is what we are after.

I don't think the USA or any other nation as a (physical) nation was ever "under God" as in "We know who God is and worship Him". We are ALL deceived, until God drags us out and puts us into the light of His son

I think you guys know what I mean to say... ALL is of (under) God but within ourselves as carnal flesh, all nations are deceived.

I wish I could articulate what I mean to say, in a better way. I hope I'm communicating correctly?

[Dave in Tenn]

Signified.  I understand.  Of course the Spiritual is what we are after.  For me, all these things ARE spiritual, whether they reside in my heart and mind or in the broader culture/world at large.  I just can't change the greater culture...not more than a little bit and not for more than a moment.  The great and small are all raised up.