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Author Topic: evil is not sin  (Read 2124 times)

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lilitalienboi16

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evil is not sin
« on: August 14, 2013, 10:53:29 AM »

Can someon share with me all the information scripturally amd from ray that we have on how one can understand this? The idea makes sense to me but I lack the understanding behind hoe it makes sense to be fully able to defend the position if need me.

I do believe it to be scriptural that evil does not necessarily equate to sin but how do I prove this to myself and any curious inquisitor?

Thanks!
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Nathan

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Re: evil is not sin
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2013, 01:21:58 PM »

Quote
Can someone share with me all the information scripturally and from ray that we have on how one can understand this? The idea makes sense to me but I lack the understanding behind how it makes sense to be fully able to defend the position if need me.

I do believe it to be scriptural that evil does not necessarily equate to sin but how do I prove this to myself and any curious inquisitor?

Thanks!

lilitalienboi16,

As Ray states below, "evil has no moral bias.  There is nothing sinful about evil in and by itself.  Evil (ra in the Hebrew) means to crush
or break into pieces.  And God uses evil for many good purposes.  Evil only becomes a sin when men use
it for wrong purposes.  In the same way, God created "darkness."  There is nothing inherently evil or sinful
about darkness, even though it may not be a pleasant thing."

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13677.msg120247.html#msg120247

If All things were created by God, specifically Out of the Father and THROUGH Christ; Does that mean that when God created Evil, it came out of the Father and went through Christ?

Now believe me I don't doubt one bit that when things were created, it happened out of the Father and through Christ. I fully believe that... but my confusion comes in when we talk about evil. Is evil apart of the "ALL?" I know this sounds probably blasphemous to even think that Evil went through Christ and I'm not trying to imply that, I'm honestly sincerely confused about that. Am I not seeing this right? Could you please help me in my confusion here? I've read just about every article you've ever written and almost all your audios. This is just a humble sincere question. I am probably not seeing this right and so thats why I was hoping for some clarification from you, if you could spare the time.

Thanks and God bless!

In Christ.

Your little brother,

Alex
 
Dear Alex:  I am afraid you are confusing "evil" with "sin."  They are certainly not one and the same thing.
I can tell from your wording that you feel that evil is a bad thing when you say:  "I know this sounds probably
blasphemous to even think that Evil went through Christ..."  As I have stated in my Lake of Fire series, evil
has no moral bias.  There is nothing sinful about evil in and by itself.  Evil (ra in the Hebrew) means to crush
or break into pieces.  And God uses evil for many good purposes.  Evil only becomes a sin when men use
it for wrong purposes.  In the same way, God created "darkness."  There is nothing inherently evil or sinful
about darkness, even though it may not be a pleasant thing. Hope his helps your understanding.
God be with you,
Ray
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: evil is not sin
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2013, 01:29:54 PM »

Ironically, that is my email you shared with me, oh how the Lord has a sense of humor. Anyone else have more info??

Thank you though nathan for the relay :D
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 01:32:41 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Extol

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Re: evil is not sin
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2013, 02:10:12 PM »

Hi Alex,

Here's the thing that's confusing about this: evil can be either an adjective or a noun. When God says "I create evil," evil is used as a noun, and as Ray noted, "has no moral bias". When used as an adjective ("What an evil person!"), there is a connotation of SIN there. Merriam-Webster defines the adjective form as "morally reprehensible: SINFUL, WICKED". "Evil" is almost always used as an adjective in our world, so it almost always means sinful.

Think of a person who has some kind of mental disorder that makes him want to rape little girls. We might say "What a sick man!" In this context, "sick" could mean perverted, twisted, sinful, etc. But when we diagnose him with a particular sickness, we don't say that the sickness itself is sinful. The sickness (noun) makes him sick (adjective). The noun has no moral bias, but the adjective is sinful.

"Bad" is a similar word. Usually when we say "bad," we are talking about some kind of sin or immorality ("That's a bad thing to do. . ."). But we can also have "bad" things that have no moral bias. If a tree falls down and crashes through the roof of my house, that is bad. But the tree itself isn't bad, and it did not have any immoral intentions. On the other hand, if a thief crashes through the roof of my house in order to rob us, that is "bad" with a moral bias. In both scenarios, the roof of my house was broken. But the tree is neither moral nor immoral, while the thief is immoral.

Further complicating the issue is the fact that "evil" can mean sin/wickedness in the Bible, and it often does. For example:

The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. Genesis 6:5

Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. Exodus 32:12

“Do not be angry, my lord,” Aaron answered. “You know how prone these people are to evil. Exodus 32:22.


These are just from the first page of results in a BibleGateway search for "evil". There are hundreds of others, probably. So the Bible uses "evil" in both the noun and adjective forms, and it often does mean sin/sinful. When Aaron says "You know how prone these people are to evil. . ." there obviously is some moral bias there. Aaron is saying "You know how prone these people are to wickedness." You would have a very difficult time convincing someone that evil never means wickedness/sin. In Genesis 6:5 above, wickedness and evil are used synonymously.

When Ray said evil has no moral bias, I don't think he intended to say that evil (noun) never means sin, or evil (adjective) never means sinful. His point, I think, was that God, who creates evil, is not sinful or evil Himself. I may be wrong, but I believe when Ray said that, it was in answer to an e-mailer who asked something like "Since God creates evil, is God Himself evil?" He creates the evil, and creates the men who will do evil (sinful) things, but that does not make God evil Himself.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: evil is not sin
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2013, 02:27:26 PM »

I agree with Ray with no qualifiers.  Assuming those scriptures are "concordantly" translated (ie. from Ra):

The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. Genesis 6:5   Evil is a noun here.

“Do not be angry, my lord,” Aaron answered. “You know how prone these people are to evil. Exodus 32:22.   Evil is also a noun here.



I don't know if it's helpful, but I've used the example of the man born blind.  BLINDNESS is an evil.  Being born blind is an evil.  For the man to have been born blind was NOT the result of his or anyone else's sin.  He was born blind so that God would be glorified.  If I, on the other hand, blind a man, that is sin. 

Sin, wickedness, transgression, iniquity are EVILS--a subset of EVIL, if you will--but not equivalent.  Not in the language of Scripture, or in the spiritual truth in scripture.

BTW, I had to stifle a chuckle when I saw that email posted here.   :D 

 

« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 02:29:37 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Kat

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Re: evil is not sin
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2013, 03:42:43 PM »


Hi Alex,

Here are a few more emails.

http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#freewill2 -----

[Ray Replies]

Dear Matthew:

Matthew, you have got to stop talking about God as if He were a mere mortal MAN! God is NOT A MAN! God IS GOD! God is Holy and Righteous and Good and LOVING. He is not evil, neither is He LIMITED IN ANY WAY.

There are MANY things that God does that we as mortals are  NOT TO IMITATE! God "makes war in righteousness"--we cannot. God KILLS and brings back to life again--we cannot.

Because God has chosen to create and USE evil for a divine purpose, we have no right to judge God as BEING evil. He is not. Neither is it a SIN on God's part to make mortals WHO DO SIN. A sin is a mistake, a lack, lawlessness. God is NONE OF THESE!

Your suggestion that because God chooses to NOT DO or NOT BE certain things, that that somehow LIMITS Him is ludicrous. Listen carefully to what I am about to say:  A Being (God) Who has the POWER AND ABILITY to be and do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING HE WISHES, IS NOT LIMITED!!!  The fact that God chooses to not only tell the truth, but is, in fact, the embodiment of TRUTH, and never lies, in no way diminishes God or limits God.  I am surprised that you cannot see and understand this?  God IS AND DOES everything that He wishes--that, my friend, is TOTAL SOVEREIGNTY!!!

The idea that if God were both truthful AND A LIAR at the same time, that then He would be sovereign in that area is nonsense, Matthew.

It is also helpful to understand the Scriptural use of the "relative" and the "absolute". I cover this in my paper. Your example of God being "forgetful" is just such a case. God condescends many times in the Scriptures to interact with man as if God Himself were a man. He likens Himself to one having "eyes" and "hands" and "hair", etc. God DOES NOT possess these physical organs of a physical body. If God had only two eyes in the front of His head as a man, then He wouldn't even be able to SEE BEHIND HIMSELF WITHOUT TURNING HIS HEAD! It is foolishness to attribute mortal, fleshly, inequalities to the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE!

When God says He will remember our sins NO MORE, He is not telling us that He is forgetful or has a poor memory. He is telling us that He will NEVER BRING UP OUR SINS to charge us with them. They have all been forgiven at the Cross of Jesus.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4460.0.html ---------------

I have said repeatedly that "evil has no moral bias." It is the motive behind the use of evil that determines whether it is "morally" right or wrong.  So you be sure to remember this next time you hear of an earthquake killing ten thousand men, women, children, and infants. Are you seriously trying to tell me that when the translators change "evil" to "disaster or calamity," that there is therefore no "EVIL" involved in either? A "pure" God DID CREATE EVIL, and that is something you will have to learn to live with and die with. Death itself is an evil and an enemy which Jesus will abolish.  You have spiritually and morally accomplished absolutely nothing by changing evil into calamity.

http://bible-truths.com/emails.html#evil -------------------------------

 Why did God create ANYTHING? THE EARTH? THE HEAVENS? US? ANGELS? ANIMALS?

God has always existed--He is ETERNAL. He is SPIRIT. He is LOVE. He is LONELY. GOD WANTS SONS AND DAUGHTERS.

Since God is good and God is love, He naturally wants His sons and daughters to be good and love also.

Goodness, righteousness, virtue, character, and love AND INANIMATE things cannot be created as a rock, or water, or a star, etc. By the very nature of goodness, virtue, etc., it requires TIME AND CIRCUMSTANCE to develop (or create, if you will) these things. And so God CREATES all that is needed to develop these virtuous traits of character and love.

Since any and every virtue that you can think of is the result of overcoming some for of evil, EVIL therefore becomes a very important ingredient in the development of virtue, character and love.

As God does not DIRECTLY try anyone, He had to create adversaries to do this "dirty work." And so, God created His OWN ADVERSARY, Satan, the devil. There are lesser adversaries in the form of demons.

God gives man the illusion of having "free" will, which exalts his pride and vanity and causes him to think he can operate independently from God. This then brings about SIN.  SIN is so bad that it needs to be atoned for. God sent His Son Jesus Christ to be this Atonement.

Only a few are presently called to understand ANY OF THESE THINGS. The rest of humanity will be called at the great white throne judging.

There was NO evil present with God before Satan, for God UNDERSTANDS all of the ramifications of good and evil.  When all enemies and powers are brought under Christ's subjection, then evil, sin, and even death itself will be abolished.

Sin and evil are absolutely necessary in the development of human character, virtue, and love.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3570.0.html --------

There are many things that God has created that are not a part of His "heart." Evil is not a part of God's heart. The death of the wicked is not something God cherishes in His heart. Sin is not something that God endorses, yet He created all the circumstances for its use.
 
http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#evil ---------------------------------

God created evil for a purpose. So naturally He will not make evil inoperative at every turn in the road or there would have been no purpose in creating it in the first place.

Evil serves many noble purposes. One of which is a back drop for good. Good cannot be understood or certainly not appreciated without a backdrop of evil. Evil makes good appear even better and is certainly much more appreciated.

Evil is necessary for the production or development of good.  You cannot name one virtue that is not in some way produced by the resistance to some form of evil.

All knowledge is a matter of contrast and relativity. One cannot know what light is unless he has been acquainted with darkness.  One has no conception of large unless he also knows of things that are small. Up is only up in relation to down. Life is the opposite of death, etc. To understand and fully appreciate all of these things, there are many necessary experiences to go through. God creates and puts us through these many things in the development of godly character.

All of these evils can be likened to the creation of a beautiful building. Ugly scaffolding is necessary in the construction of this building. It is ugly and serves no purpose other than in the actual construction of the building. When the building is completed, the scaffolding is torn down and discarded. It serves no further purpose. All evil will be discarded one day. And the last enemy, DEATH, will likewise be ABOLISHED FOR EVER (I Cor. 15:26) and God will "ALL in All"!!!

May God be with you and grant you wisdom and understanding.

Sincerely,

Ray
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 10:19:09 PM by Kat »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: evil is not sin
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2013, 05:24:16 PM »

Dave and Jesse, thank you both for the edifying replies. I see now why I was having a difficult time grasping this. Its a simple idea but the words usage is complicated. I think I understand it a little better now!

Kat, I havn't gotten around to reading your reply yet but I will soon!

Thanks all,

Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Nathan

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Re: evil is not sin
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2013, 06:41:46 PM »

This may not be the perfect analogy, but I think it's a good one: we've all heard the saying, "guns don't kill people, people kill people." The gun has no moral bias. There has been an attempt as of late to demonize guns as if the gun itself is "sin" or "immoral", when in actuality the root cause is always the intentions of mans' heart that uses the gun in immoral or sinful ways. Ban the guns and man will use knives, fists, rocks, etc to do what man always does - sin.

Evil doesn't have a mind of its own, but man does have a mind of its own (the heart/carnal mind) that commits evil and thus mans' heart is immoral, sins or is sinful. Whether or not "evil" is used as a noun or adjective in Scripture is irrelevant - in all cases it is always the intentions of the heart that are sinful, not evil itself. Man does evil because man is sinful, but evil is not sin.



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lilitalienboi16

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Re: evil is not sin
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2013, 02:40:37 PM »

Thank you kat for those many great excerpts from ray! I appreciate it.

I understand many of the things you are all saying to me.. I suppose is the "evil is not sin" which is always hard to wrap my mind around since the vast majority of times, sin is evil.

This scripture always comes to mind for me;

Gen 50:20 "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Its just an interesting flip on things... what was done in evil by men, God was able to bring forth as good.

thoughts?
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Kat

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Re: evil is not sin
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2013, 03:05:59 PM »


Hi Alex,

Quote
Gen 50:20 "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Its just an interesting flip on things... what was done in evil by men, God was able to bring forth as good.

That is an interesting verse, I just used it in a conversation the other day. It seems when we see a loved one doing something that we think is wrong, we naturally rush to their aid to stop them. Well what if they don't see it the way we do and want to continue with what they are doing, so we fret and worry about them.

Even if somebody we know is making a serious error and doing something we will lead to chastisement... don't we all need to learn from our mistakes? We need first hand experience with something to have a really good understanding of it, just think of all the years we spent in church, we certainly understand exactly what it's about now. So I think it's the same with other things as well. God gives us personal first hand experience with something and yes He will show us the error of our way and that is not a pleasant thing. But one day He could then use what we learned from that experience to help others that are caught up in the same type thing. Yes God has a way of taking something that is evil and turning it into something for the good...

Just think how God will have all these elect at His serve on day that have experienced all kinds of differing life situations, that He can then use to send out and help others that have difficulties with the same thing. Maybe that is part of the preparation, that He is building up a people that have all the life experiences that He will need to serve Him in the kingdom.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Nathan

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Re: evil is not sin
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2013, 03:12:36 PM »

Quote
Gen 50:20 "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Its just an interesting flip on things... what was done in evil by men, God was able to bring forth as good.

thoughts?

God knew and intended for them to do the very evil they committed - it was all apart of His plan. As Ray has said, "It is God Who makes both the lemons and the lemonade."

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html

Here is the inspired answer to what caused Joseph’s brother to do what they did:

    "Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither…"

Oh yes, Joseph admitted that it was his brothers who "…sold me hither…" Of this there is no doubt. Just as there is no doubt that all of mankind makes billions and billions of choices and decisions. Many of them just as evil as the brothers of Joseph. And just like Joseph’s brothers, billions of people make such decisions and choices, and do such deeds according to their own will. But, are their wills "free" to think and do these things, or are their wills controlled and made to do what they will to do, by a Higher Power?

As Paul Harvey likes to say, "And now for the rest of the story":

    "Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: FOR GOD DID SEND ME BEFORE YOU TO PRESERVE LIFE" (Gen. 45:5).

And so once again, we have the plain Scriptural truth regarding man’s fabled "free will"—HE HAS NO FREE WILL!

Joseph tells them to not grieve or be angry with themselves for selling him into Egypt. But they did feel guilty and grieved because they knew that they did what that did from their hearts. It was mean and cruel and evil what they did, and willingly did it. Of this there is absolutely no debate whatsoever. But that they made these choices freely, without a cause, is both ridiculous and unscriptural.

They grieved because they knew they did this evil to Joseph. And yet Joseph is telling them that it was God who brought Joseph down to Egypt. Yes God used Joseph’s brothers, yes God used the Ishmeelites to bring it all about, but it was all of God.

But just how did God actually CAUSE Joseph’s brothers to do what they did. Did God supernaturally make them all murders? Did God force Joseph’s brothers to hate Joseph and do this evil to him? No, God did not force them. God didn’t need to force them, seeing that if God would bring about the exact necessary circumstances, they would all agree to do this dirty deed, VOLUNTARILY. But God did cause it nonetheless, and God tells us exactly how He did it and what it was that caused Joseph’s brother to do this evil to him. Let’s read it:

    "Now Israel [Jacob] loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours. And when his brehren saw that their father loved him more than all his brethren, THEY HATED HIM…" (Gen. 37:3-4).

    "And Joseph dreamed a dream and he told it to his brethren: and THEY HATED HIM YET THE MORE" (37:5).

After Joseph tells his brothers his dream we read this:

    "And his brethren said to him, Shall you indeed reign over us? Or shall you indeed have dominion over us? And THEY HATED HIM YET THE MORE for his dreams, and for his words" (Ver. 8).

    "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold the sun and the moon and the eleven stars [his eleven brothers] made obeisance to me [bowed down to me]… And his brothers ENVIED HIM…" (Vers. 9 & 11).

Later Joseph goes out into the fields to meet his brothers:

    "And when they saw him afar off, even before he came near unto them, they CONSPIRED AGAINST HIM TO SLAY HIM" (Ver. 18).

And so, did God have to FORCE Joseph’s brother AGAINST THEIR WILLS to do this evil deed? No. All God had to do (and it was God Who did bring it about) was to inspire Jacob to make Joseph a robe of many colors. All God had to do is have Joseph dream a silly dream. That’s all. And the carnal mind and heart of Joseph’s brothers took it from there and ran with it just as God knew and intended for them to do. Contrary to Christian doctrines, God is really quite good at what He does.

We can learn a great deal about how God operates in the world of humanity by studying these few verses. Were the dreams that God caused Joseph to have, evil? No, of course they were not evil. The fulfillment of these dream/prophecies, pictured the salvation of the Children of Israel down in Egypt. Had God not provided for them through their brother Joseph, they would have starved to death. So, no, these dreams were not evil.

But what effect did these benevolent dreams have on Joseph’s brothers? Why, exactly what God wanted them to have—they made them hate Joseph, they made them mad, they made them want to kill Joseph. God had to intervene in Reuben’s heart or they would have killed Joseph.

So who was ultimately responsible for Joseph’s brothers doing their evil deeds? Why, GOD, of course. It was GOD who caused Joseph to have his dreams and God knew that those dreams would excite the carnal passions of his brothers to do their evil deed. It was all planned. It was God’s plan. It was a good plan. The plan worked perfectly and beautifully. So why do most Christian hate the fact that God has a plan for their life that is beyond their own control? It all has to do with the unconverted, carnal mind, which hates God, and hates His spiritual Law.

God knew exactly how to insight hatred out of Joseph’s brothers. And God knows exactly how to insight hated out of US toward HIM. God has the entire human race born under "The law of sin and death." This is why,

    "…the carnal mind [the natural mind] is enmity [hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: evil is not sin
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2013, 01:18:09 AM »

Thank you Nathan, great excerpt and great reminder!

I definitely need to take the time and go back through these articles. Its been so long and with school, its like homer simpson said; "The new stuff pushes the old stuff out!" Haha... I would hope not but sometimes it feels like it!

God bless,

Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
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