bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email bibletruths.forum@gmail.com   

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: God is not the source of EVERY evil?  (Read 1672 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Addison

  • Guest
God is not the source of EVERY evil?
« on: August 14, 2013, 12:44:13 PM »

We here at bibletruths.com believe that God causes all things, correct? Even the evil things- but God does so using other channels. God controls Satan, God sends strong delusions, God sends lying spirits, etc. But in the end it is all CAUSED by God. But I got into a debate with someone and they gave me some scriptures that I admit stumped me a little bit. Please read the following and tell me what you guys think.

God is NOT the source of every evil, read Jeremiah :Jer. 7:30
 For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight,” declares the Lord, “they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. 31 They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind (DOESN'T SOUND LIKE HE PLANNED THIS OUT)

Jer. 19:Hear the word of the Lord, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, “Behold I am about to bring a calamity(this is how God creates evil, as a corrective against man's evil) upon this place, at which the ears of everyone that hears of it will tingle. 4 Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent 5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind[/b];(DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A FOREKNOWN EVENT!)

Jer. 32:31
“Indeed this city has been to Me a provocation of My anger and My wrath from the day that they built it, even to this day, so that it should be removed from before My face, 32 because of all the evil of the sons of Israel and the sons of Judah which they have done(Why didn't God say 'which I made them do'?) to provoke Me to anger(What kind of God makes Himself angry?)—they, their kings, their leaders, their priests, their prophets, the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 33 They have turned their back to Me and not their face; though I taught them, teaching again and again, they would not listen and receive instruction. 34 But they put their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. 35 They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.[/b](God didn't make them sin!)

Three times in very similar language, if God is to be believed, He denies that this was something He commanded, He says "it had never entered My mind". I believe God!


I have no answers to this!

Please help

Thanks,

Addison
Logged

Nathan

  • Guest
Re: God is not the source of EVERY evil?
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2013, 02:11:14 PM »

Quote
Three times in very similar language, if God is to be believed, He denies that this was something He commanded, He says "it had never entered My mind". I believe God!


I have no answers to this!

Addison,

I think the question you are really trying to ask, is not that God denied that He commanded the people to do all of the abominable things they were doing (of course God never commanded them to do such things), the issue you are having and why you are stumped in your current debate has to do with the phrases, "it did not come into My mind", "nor did it ever enter My mind" and "nor had it entered My mind" - specifically the word "mind". Meaning, it sounds like God had no foreknowledge of their actions and it was not apart of His plan.

The English word "mind" (used in the 3 passages you listed from Jeremiah) is translated from the Hebrew word: 3820 leb labe a form of 3824; the heart; also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything:--+ care for, comfortably, consent, X considered, courag(-eous), friend(-ly), ((broken-), (hard-), (merry-), (stiff-), (stout-), double) heart((-ed)), X heed, X I, kindly, midst, mind(-ed), X regard((-ed)), X themselves, X unawares, understanding, X well, willingly, wisdom. --- Strong's Concordance

So, it's not that it never entered God's MIND, as in He didn't have foreknowledge of these abominable acts - it never entered His HEART.

"I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not." (Isaiah 66:4)

It is not the HEART of God to delight in evil - He takes no pleasure in it, but evil does serve a purpose.




« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 02:22:44 PM by Nathan »
Logged

Extol

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 614
Re: God is not the source of EVERY evil?
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2013, 02:18:20 PM »

Addison,

Just listened to "Does All Mean All?" last weekend. . .

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5605.0.html

Notice this verse in Jeremiah. I covered this in my first series on ‘Hell’ - Hell Is A Hoax.

Jer 32:35  And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind (Heb. - heart), that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

The Hebrew word for mind is heart, it certainly came into His mind... He knew they would do it, but there was no emotional pleasure in His heart, that they did this abomination. What? God is telling us that it never entered His mind (Heb. - heart), that people should burn in fire. That’s an abomination to Him. Yet we are told He is going to burn people in fire, for all eternity? God calls it an abomination! God is going to perform an abomination? For all eternity? Can you not see where the church blasphemes the name of God at every turn. 
Logged

se7en

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 287
Re: God is not the source of EVERY evil?
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2013, 02:37:56 PM »

Addison,

Ray spoke on absolute truth and relative truth. When God says something like "I was sorrowful and wish I had never created man". God is relating to us (relative truth) how he felt. He relates to us as we can understand things so we have an understanding of how God feels about a certain topic. Is it true? yes, but a relative truth in relation to the whole Truth.

When he says "It has never even entered my mind". He's relating to us how this travesty is making Him feel at the time. Of course it's true, but he's relating to us, as humans, on how this situation makes him feel on a human level.

From Ray's article.....

One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.

Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."

Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."

End Ray's quote.

The absolute truth is that God predestined and is in control of everything! His soveriegnty is aboslute! The relative truth is "nor did it ever enter My mind". God is relating to us, as humans, how He felt about this event. Like when our moms/dads get on to us for doing something wrong by saying "I wouldn't have even imagined you could do something like that!"


I hope this helped!
Logged
~Se7en

Arion

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 686
  • Marquette, MI
    • Big Bay Michigan Weather
Re: God is not the source of EVERY evil?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2013, 04:01:10 PM »

Get a free copy of E-Sword and load it up with various bible translations and some of the harder to understand scriptures you can clear themselves up rather easily. 

Jer 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons with fire, burnt-offerings to Baal, that I commanded not, nor spoke of, nor did it come up on My heart." [clv version]

Jer 19:5  They have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I never commanded nor spoke, nor did it come into My heart.  [liitv version]

Jer 19:5  And have built the high places of Baal for burning up their sons in the fire as ascending-sacrifices to Baal,—Which I commanded not, Nor spake, Neither came it up on my heart,  [Rotherham]

Jer 19:5  and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons with fire, burnt-offerings to Baal, that I commanded not, nor spake of, nor did it come up on My heart.  [Young's Literal]

They all handle the translation of 'leb' and render it correctly as heart instead of 'mind'.
Logged

Addison

  • Guest
Re: God is not the source of EVERY evil?
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2013, 04:42:53 PM »

Thank you guys so much. These answers are perfect and I admit that even I definitely learned some things here. I copied and pasted some of your answers in the thread I have going where I am debating some people about this (it's on Facebook) but I gave credit to all of you.

PM me if you want a link to the thread.
Logged

Craig

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4282
  • There are two kinds of cops.The quick and the dead
Re: God is not the source of EVERY evil?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2013, 04:48:13 PM »

Why debate it with anyone? 

You will not change their minds. 

Don't cast your pearls before swine.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Never argue with an idiot. Bystanders won't be able to tell the difference. 

Logged

Addison

  • Guest
Re: God is not the source of EVERY evil?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2013, 04:57:10 PM »

Why debate it with anyone? 

You will not change their minds. 

Don't cast your pearls before swine.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Never argue with an idiot. Bystanders won't be able to tell the difference.

I know that only God can show someone the truth, but I think that it plants seeds- you know? These people aren't fire and brimstone jackasses most of the time. The forum that I am apart of is for people who believe in Christian Universal Reconciliation but as you know, even within this community there is a lot of disagreement among people. Also, they aren't the only ones who see the conversations- some people in the groups are just viewers and they read other people's comments. I'd like to think that there are some people out there learning some good things from viewing our discussions.


Addison
Logged

Rhys

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1326
  • The Spirit helps us in our weakness
    • Facebook
Re: God is not the source of EVERY evil?
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2013, 08:00:09 AM »


I know that only God can show someone the truth, but I think that it plants seeds- you know? These people aren't fire and brimstone jackasses most of the time. The forum that I am apart of is for people who believe in Christian Universal Reconciliation but as you know, even within this community there is a lot of disagreement among people. Also, they aren't the only ones who see the conversations- some people in the groups are just viewers and they read other people's comments. I'd like to think that there are some people out there learning some good things from viewing our discussions.


Addison


I know I do as not posting as much as I normally do but it's good to have times just to read and think and to ponder on the great truths of God that set us free.

Rhys
Logged
I’ve noticed that I have changed in many ways since Bible Truths and the forum and one of them is living life much too seriously.

Another one is learning to rest in God and truly trust Him.

I'm still a work in progress.
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.105 seconds with 26 queries.