We see, so our sin remains?

[loretta]

In John 9, Jesus restores sight to the blind man by making clay with his spit. Gross as it sounds, I believe it had to have a purpose.  The man had to be sent away covered in clay so that he would not 'see' Jesus and be spiritually converted. So he remains spiritually blind and proclaims, 'he sent me and I washed' - a kind of work.  Till he was thrown out of the church (the synagogue) and then Jesus met him and revealed himself to him and he was spiritually renewed.

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

The question that remains is that we who have come out of her, 'my people', having had our spiritual blindness removed, does our sin remain? (v41). And those who are still in the apostate church, blinded,  are they without sin? What is the spiritual significance of this verse for us, and I believe there is an important one because in Christendon it is commonly parroted that our sins, past, present and future are forgiven, washed in the precious blood of Jesus.

[Rhys 🕊]

Cleansed and forgiven but still remains:

1Jn 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8  If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10  If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We are deceived if we think we have none whether elect or not.

As Ray often has said:

We are sinning machines. We sin voluntarily. We do not need to be MADE to sin.

I don't care what Christendom says as they are full of errors and are spiritually blind too like the Pharisees. Some of the churches I was involved in or people within them believed you could lose your salvation, they never said how but I would imagine some sin would do it therefore certain future sins are not forgiven from what they believe but then they all believe lies because they do not know the truth.

Some verses from a previous post of mine are also good here:

Rom 7:18  For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Rom 7:19  For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Rom 7:20  Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:21  So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23  but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24  Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

When you know the truth delight yourself in it or something else will take over and I know it's still a battle for me. I still have plenty to yet overcome but the significance to me is in God's truth and applying it in your life.

Rhys

[Kat]

Hi Loretta,

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

The question that remains is that we who have come out of her, 'my people', having had our spiritual blindness removed, does our sin remain? (v41). And those who are still in the apostate church, blinded,  are they without sin? What is the spiritual significance of this verse for us, and I believe there is an important one because in Christendon it is commonly parroted that our sins, past, present and future are forgiven, washed in the precious blood of Jesus.

In that passage in John 9 there a physically blind man is healed, so that he has sight. But "the words that I (Jesus Christ) speak to you are spirit" (John 6:63), so it has to be discerned from what is actually being said as to what is spiritually meant.

John 9:39  And Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind."

When Christ said "that those who do not see..." He is talking about spiritually blind, "...may see" be given spiritual sight/understanding. Christ was to start His church - the elect and they would have there spiritual blind eyes opened.

Now He went on to say "that those who see," remember He is talking to the Pharisees here and as teachers of the law they believed they were wise/knowledgeable, so believed they could 'see' (just like the leaders of the church today believe). But Christ said, concerning the truth they were "made blind," as in Matt. 23 He called them "blind guides." In Revelation there is a good example of what this is saying.

Rev 3:17  Because you say, "I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--

It goes on to say that it is Christ that gives us 'sight' to understand the spiritual.

Rev 3:18  I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

You see He uses the term "anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see," that gives a bit of a connection back to the blind man. Though the blind man was given his physical sight when Christ anointed his eyes with mud physically, the elect are given spiritual sight when Christ anoints our eyes with symbolic spiritual salve.

John 9:40  Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, "Are we blind also?"

You can see here that the Pharisees really do believe they have spiritual knowledge.

John 9:41  Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, "We see.' Therefore your sin remains.

So Jesus says to them "if you were blind" and were humble and could admit it, because it is one thing to act in ignorance as Paul said he had done.

1Tim 1:13  though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief,

Then if they were in this state of humility and go on to repentance, their sins could be forgiven, "you would have no sin." But it is quite another thing to arrogantly boost of knowledge, "but now you say, "we see," that they didn't even have. And Jesus goes on to tell them "therefore your sin remains," because He knew the outcome of these Pharisees which He had stated in the chapter 8 before, "then Jesus said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin" (John 8:21).

These Pharisees were guilty of much more than just ordinary sin.

Mat 12:24  Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."
Mat 12:31  "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. (NKJV)
v. 32  Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 3:28  `Verily I say to you, that all the sins shall be forgiven to the sons of men, and evil speakings with which they might speak evil,
v. 29  but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness--to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'
v. 30  because they (v. 22 the scribes who came down from Jerusalem) said, `He hath an unclean spirit.' (Young's)

Ray explains this in an email.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2175.msg17491.html#msg17491 -----

When Jesus warned of this sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it was when He had cast out demons. The Scribes said that Jesus cast out devils by the prince of devils (Mark 3:22).  The Pharisees also accused Him of this very same thing (Matt. 9:34). And we are told that Jesus gave that stern warning, "Because they said, He [Jesus] has an unclean spirit."

But this alone is not all there is to this sin. Even in the Old Testament, when one sinned "ignorantly," he was held to a lower standard than if he sinned "willfully, knowingly."  God's principles are always true. There was more to the sin of these Scribes and Pharisees than merely stating that Jesus had a devil and cast out devils by the prince of devil. The truth is THEY KNEW BETTER.  They knew that they were lying in order to deceive the multitudes who were beginning to believe in and trust Jesus as a Man of God. They were SINNING AGAINST LIGHT.  They were sinning against WHAT THEY KNEW WAS THE TRUTH.  And how do we know this?  We are frankly TOLD this in the Scriptures.

In John 3 we have a "Ruler of the Jews" by the name of Nicodemus, and this is what we are told by him:  "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a RULER [this man KNEW what the Scribes and the Pharisees believed behind closed doors] of the Jews. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto Him, Rabbi, WE [Scribes, Pharisees, Rulers, Jews]  KNOW  that you are a Teacher COME FROM GOD; for no man can do these miracles [such as casting out demons] that You do, except GOD BE WITH HIM"  (John 3:1-2).

It is when we KNOW the truth and blaspheme AGAINST THE TRUE LIGHT THAT WE KNOW, that we then "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" which is the means by which light and truth is imparted.

God be with you,
Ray

[Deborah-Leigh]

The question that remains is that we who have come out of her, 'my people', having had our spiritual blindness removed, does our sin remain? (v41). And those who are still in the apostate church, blinded,  are they without sin?

Hi Loretta

Here is an answer worth many hours of consideration.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

This is the order of what happens to sin:

1.   Forgiveness
2.   Repentance
3.   Cleansing

God does not cleanse anybody of sins they haven't repented of.

Forgiveness comes first!

[Deborah-Leigh]

I love it too, John.

We are ALL forgiven. Just not all cleaned up yet!

TO ONLY JUST GRASP THAT MUCH, IS A REAL WAKE UP CALL.

~

[loretta]

These Pharisees were guilty of much more than just ordinary sin.

And so are we.

Tks Kat, this is the answer I was looking for.

This is the order of what happens to sin:

1.   Forgiveness
2.   Repentance
3.   Cleansing

God does not cleanse anybody of sins they haven't repented of.

Forgiveness comes first!

Tks ALL for reminding me that between forgiveness and cleansing, there is repentance.  I had read Ray's teaching on repentance in another thread, but it bears re-reading in the context of one's own search for the truth.