Letting go of sunday school

[dodrill]

As Ray taught - the bible is one giant parable - and he showed from Genesis that the earth brought forth the mountains - we can know today scientifically that this process still happens with volcanoes and such like. How do you reconcile some events in the bible that were catastrophic in nature (but very naturally explained by science today) like Sodom and Gomorrah where fire and sulfur, or brimstone, rained down - we would call that a meteorite shower today
The plagues in Egypt - we can understand these phenomena with weather patterns and the such like. So has man always been superstitious of Our Eternal Maker and Placer and written from this perspective - or has God's nature changed? Ray spoke of God resting - and we enter into His rest too
Has man assigned God this vengeful nature that would supernaturally (unnaturally) cause catastrophic events on inhabitants of the earth - or have we forgotten how to read the signs in the heavens - watching stars and learning how our earth works?

It was Mark Twain who quipped, IN the beginning God made man in His image. And man has been returning the favor ever since."

[Dennis Vogel]

Rev 16:18  And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Not just back then - More to come

[dodrill]

Yes the groaning creation is in longing for His return - so these awful catastrophic natural occurrences like earthquakes and such are 'earths birth pains' - not only destruction for wicked men (which is all of us before He changes us) the earth is very much a living moving expanding body - do I oversimplify this to make it sound better?

Romans 8: 22 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
As I understand after having my old mindset challenged with Ray showing by scripture that God is not going to torture anyone for all eternity after death
Surely these impending disasters (the ones that have been before and are still too come) are not for judgment of mankind but have a purpose of reconciliation? Just sometimes mankind gets in the way of them and suffers loss of his life and these natural events would have happened anyway even if there was no man to witness it?

[Kat]

Hi Hayley,

Everything in this creation is used by God for His purposes, we are now in this present evil age to experience good and evil from every means there is. So these 'naturally' occurring events are just part of what God has created and is now using to accomplish His plan.

I think things that happen like earthquakes or flood are designed into His plan to happen at precisely when God's foresight/predetermination and knew when He would want it to. But there is no doubt that He can maneuver things in nature supernaturally to respond according to His will.

It's all predetermined, He is not reacting to what is happening, "He knows the end from the beginning." Everything that happens is intricately intertwined with everything else that is happening. God is totally in charge and in control of everything.

Mat 10:29  Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.
v. 30  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
v. 31  Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dodrill]

Thanks Kat - I get this - but that old mindset of God being like Thor and bringing down lightening on a whim in reaction to mankind's wrongs is too flimsy to hold up - when we know that everything is preordained and planned and fore knowable by God - it shows to me that the phantom freewill of events happening without forewarning or knowledge is not true - even nature runs with the plan of God and is subject to law - just men of old didn't see the creation as a whole and have some rational thinking of how things work - am I off on a tangent again? yes keep digging dodrill so maybe God hardened Pharaohs heart at the same time Egypt was preparing for their annual floods - synchronicity, serendipity, coincidence and timing - all perfect harmony for God is what I am trying to say thanks for listening

[se7en]

Hayley,

I think I understand what your asking/stating. Your saying that what men of old thought of catastrophic events was very supernatural which today is explained easily scientifically?  meteors, earthquakes, volcanoes, lightning etc?

If that's what your saying then I totally agree with what your thinking here. Men didn't understand the physical laws of nature back then completely and fully as we do now. They attributed to some higher power or invisible being, and they are not wholly wrong.

the physical world and all it's scientists can only give us physical truths. They are physical "truths" when science is provable and being honest with itself, but it can only explain physical truth which is type and shadow.

We know that the physical is always a type and shadow of the spiritual TRUTH. So, it's absolutely fascinating to find out that pressure and heat to the earths crust from the mantle cause a volcano to erupt, or pressure and heat cause a diamond to form over time but as God's chosen elect, we seek out the spiritual Truth behind the physical type..... example: after much trial and tribulation, pressure, heat and time, we are formed into a beautiful diamond made into his image, within the Heavens (kingdom of God).

Is that what you were saying Haley?

[dodrill]

Exactly - how eloquent you are dear brother - the wages of sin are death - not impending floods and fire and brimstone - yes that is how they naturally died - but it was how our Super Natural God brought it about - synchronizing all that is natural on the earth (no Sid Roth's version of a supernatural God with thunderbolts and lightening )
I forgot to mention which sunday school I went to - a Presbyterian one - and I remember a teacher saying we are lucky if we get into heaven by the skin of our teeth - have you ever? I mean even as a kid I knew teeth didn't have skin

[Deborah-Leigh]

I remember a teacher saying we are lucky if we get into heaven by the skin of our teeth - have you ever? I mean even as a kid I knew teeth didn't have skin

CORRECT.

There is NO truth in any interpretation OF TRUTH.
Arc

[Dave in Tenn]

Just a little comment inserted edge-wise:

All of these events are not simply "earth's birth-pains", but "the beginning" of travails for us.  What they are, when they occur, and how "ordinary" or "extraordinary" (terms I prefer over 'natural' and 'supernatural') they appear is in the Hands of God. 

[Nathan]

How do you reconcile some events in the bible that were catastrophic in nature (but very naturally explained by science today) like Sodom and Gomorrah where fire and sulfur, or brimstone, rained down - we would call that a meteorite shower today

The plagues in Egypt - we can understand these phenomena with weather patterns and the such like. So has man always been superstitious of Our Eternal Maker and Placer and written from this perspective - or has God's nature changed? Ray spoke of God resting - and we enter into His rest too

Has man assigned God this vengeful nature that would supernaturally (unnaturally) cause catastrophic events on inhabitants of the earth - or have we forgotten how to read the signs in the heavens - watching stars and learning how our earth works?

One could probably find ways to explain the plagues in Egypt as natural causes as the History Channel and others have shown, but there is one plague that is undoubtedly supernatural in nature and that is the death of all the firstborn children of the Egyptians and the firstborn of their beasts.

The History Channel also made the claim that the parting of the Red Sea was not supernatural either, but rather, the Israelites just crossed over at a low tide or a dry portion of the sea in a certain time of season. If this is true, then how was the Egyptian army engulfed and vanquished by the waters of the sea if there was nothing to engulf them with.

Clearly, there is a supernatural element to these events. Was the flood in Noah's day natural or supernatural? In my opinion, there are many out to prove that all of these events are natural and not supernatural to prove that there is no God and of course there are others who will use these events to show that God is a vengeful, Thor-like being. Neither are true. When we understand His master plan in creating all of mankind into His image, it's ALL good. 

[Dave in Tenn]

The problem I have using the terms 'natural' and 'supernatural' is that it diminishes God in the mundane and "normal" occurrences of life, which all of us experience.  I don't believe any more in a God Who steps in from time to time to do some astounding act.  ALL is of God.  Moses had an extraordinary life for 40 years, then he spent 40 years working for his father-in-law.  THEN he had an extraordinary life again.  Was God not God and directing his steps during those 40 years of sheep-herding?  Does the world really just tick along between miracles?  Or is God working all in all?  Is He somewhere out in space peeking in or tinkering, is it simply that He is in control of things, or do we really live and move and have our being IN HIM? 

Besides, no matter how 'normal' some lives are at the moment...no volcanoes, no earthquakes, no bombs falling on our own houses...SOMEBODY is going through it somewhere on this round earth.  The rain falls on the just and the unjust, and it's light, dark, dawn or dusk somewhere on the earth all the time.

That's coming out of sunday school for me.     

[loretta]

Is He somewhere out in space peeking in or tinkering, is it simply that He is in control of things, or do we really live and move and have our being IN HIM? 

Boy, what I am learning coming out of sunday school!  Very interesting thread.

How is it different though, we living, moving and having our being in HIM v/s He being in control of things?

[Dave in Tenn]

Loretta, for me one is 'getting there' and the other is 'there'.  I don't have the Bible memorized, but while I don't doubt for a moment that God is in control of all things, I don't think that statement is in Scripture.  But that we live and move and have our being (ARE) in Him is scripture, and the grandest possible statement that can be made concerning all of His creation and the plan of God for it.  He's not 'out there', we are IN THERE. 

[Kat]

Hi Dave,

You make a good point, so I'm looking to see if there is a Scripture that says God 'controls' all things.

Pro 16:9  A man's heart plans his way,
       But the LORD directs his steps.

Dan 5:23  And you have lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven... and the God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified. (NKJV)

Dan 5:23 Over the Lord, the Eloah of the heavens, you exalt yourself... yet the Eloah in Whose hand is your breath, and for Whom are all your paths, Him you do not honor." (CLV)

Psa 115:3  But our God is in heaven;
       He does whatever He pleases. (NKJV)

Psa 115:3 Indeed our Elohim is in the heavens; All that He desires, He does." (CLV)

Job 23:13  "But He is unique, and who can make Him change?
       And whatever His soul desires, that He does.
v. 14  For He performs what is appointed for me,
       And many such things are with Him.

I did not find the word 'control,' but I think those verses indicate the same thing. But just wanted to see what was in the Scripture on this.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[microlink]

Hi all,
One of Ray's favorites
Isa_46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

[se7en]

Dave, ..... "ALL is of God." Beautiful!

This mundane or what we call "mundane" every day life is actually a type and shadow of a supernatural life that is ever present... every day, 24/7, constantly. The fact that I am concious and able to witness events... all Him.

Matt 25:40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

He is working ALL things after the council of His own will. He's directing, leading, working the salvation of all!! And it's going on constantly.

It's easy to get complacent in our perception of "daily living". However, this whole universe is a testament of His power, the birth of a baby, the death of a loved one, using the bathroom, picking up a spoon.... It's all Christ!

Psalm 107:8 Oh, that men would give thanks to the Lord for His goodness, And for His wonderful works to the children of men!

He's doing it all by the power of His spirit/Word.  These thoughts I think right now are not even my own!!!!  He put them there, He fashioned these fingers to type this message... It all points to Him. Every molecule, atom, electron, quark, string. ALL POWER AND ENERGY comes from the source of ALL. The father through the son

It's wonderful

[loretta]

The sense I get reading everybody's post is that although we are mere puppets in this world that is our stage, there is ultimate freedom for those who are IN Christ.

I used to fear persecution. I still do!  In Christendom, much is made of martyrs who stand firm for their faith, and that is good.  But what about those who are fearful, who recant under threat of torture or death - isn't that of God too, to bring about His ultimate purpose.

So whether I stand or fall, live or die, under ordinary or extraordinary circumstances, it is ALL of God.

If that is not real freedom, then what is?

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Thanks everybody.