Thanks for the replies everyone.
There are some aspects of the story of the Garden of Gethsemane that I still cannot accept.
* Everybody groans *
* How can Oatmeal be so thick *
When I say "the story of the Garden of Gethsemane" I am talking about what we are told about the story that is inclusive of things that the Scriptures do not actually say, and thus cannot be agreed with Scripture and cannot be proved as factual.
Please be patient and please make a true and genuine effort to understand what I am saying, putting aside the temptation to read quickly because you already "know the facts" of the story.
Let me give you two facts to start with, facts that to the best of my ability and knowledge are verified by the Scriptures.
The Scriptures do not say that "this cup" (as opposed to "the cup") is the Cross.
The Scriptures do not say that Jesus was sorrowful because He was thinking about the approaching Crucifixion.
Search the Scriptures and see for yourself.
The above two "facts" have been added to the Scriptural account, and then more has been added to that.
Even if you should adamantly insist that those things have those meanings it does not make it so, nor can it make it so.
I am definitely open to correction in this. I do ask that you do read and consider carefully before formulating any reply.
I have written a reply to Kat, and for convenience and to save time I will leave things in that format:
Hi Kat, and thanks everyone for your comments.
The words in this passage "this cup" is certainly speaking of His Crucifixion…
But just as it's clear that the Scripture show that the "cup" was to be by death on the cross…
But I know this is my interpretation of this passage, it is what I see in it though.
The Scripture does not say that "this cup" is the cross. It is you that says that. Because you think that it must be the cross, you say that it is the cross. You are aware that the Crucifixion is coming up, and you assume that "this cup" is the cross.
Let us not go beyond what the Scriptures say in this, and let us listen to and take note of what the Scriptures say, using the version that you used:
From Matthew:
Matthew 26:36-38 (NKJV)
Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, "Sit here while I go and pray over there." And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed. Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me."
From Mark:
Mark 14:32-34
Then they came to a place which was named Gethsemane; and He said to His disciples, "Sit here while I pray." And He took Peter, James, and John with Him, and He began to be troubled and deeply distressed. Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch."
The word "troubled" in Mark is translated in the KJV as "sore amazed" and in the CLV as "overawed".
The Scriptures say that this experience of sorrow and deep distress began in the Garden. The word "began" shows from Scripture (it is not speculation) that this experience was not happening before Jesus got to the Garden and that it began after He got there.
What was the cause of the sorrow? Where did it come from? The Scriptures do not say, so why should we speculate on that? However you speculate, and you assume, that it was because of the cross. Where do you get that idea? It’s not from the Scriptures, because the Scriptures do not tell us that.
Perhaps there is a clue. The experience of sorrow started suddenly. It was not there, and then it was. Does that mean that the source was external? Let’s not consider that matter any further at this time.
In the sentence spoken by Jesus: "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death.", here is a definition of the word translated 'to':
Short Definition: until, as far as
Definition: (a) conj: until, (b) prep: as far as, up to, as much as, until.
So what was Jesus saying, without us speculating, without us adding, without us taking away, but by looking at the words?
My soul is sorrowful, as far as, to the point of, death.
Jesus was experiencing sorrow to the point of the cessation of the functioning of His physical body. We know this without any doubt, we know this without question, and we know this without using speculation. The Scriptures tell us so. Jesus told us so.
Jesus was committed in going to the cross. We are sure of this from the Scriptures. He was not double-minded in His purpose. But suddenly, we are told (not by Scripture), even though He was about to die in the Garden, Jesus became unconcerned about that and very concerned about trying to get out of going to the cross. He became so concerned about trying to get out of going to the cross that He completely forgot that He was about to die in the Garden.
You have got to be kidding me.
Remember that the Scriptures do not say that "this cup" was the cross. You did. The Scriptures do not say that the sorrow was because the Crucifixion was approaching. You did. The Scriptures say that the sorrow began after Jesus arrived at the Garden and that Jesus experienced sorrow as far as, up to, as much as, until, death. Take note of what the Scriptures say, but go no further. Do not add to the Scriptures.
Jesus was about to die, and He had to resist that death with all of His being.
I did not make it up that Jesus was about to die, in the Garden. It is not speculation on my behalf. It is not assumption. I did not dream it up one day while lying in bed. The Scriptures say so.
Jesus was about to die, and He had to resist that death with all of His being. An angel was sent to strengthen Him.
Do you think that an angel was sent to Jesus to give Jesus the strength to ask even more fervently to get out of going to the cross? Was the Father now being double-minded?
"This cup" was the cup that Jesus was experiencing right then and there in the Garden.
Jesus announces to the three disciples that He is sorrowful, even to death. He asks the disciples to watch with Him. His attention is focused on the immediate problem, and it is a serious one. He immediately goes and asks for "this cup" to be removed. What cup? The cup of the cross? How could it be the cup of the cross? How could Jesus, not only because of the sorrow unto death that He is experiencing but because of His commitment to His Father, and to us, suddenly lose focus on the immediate problem of His experiencing sorrow unto death, so much sorrow that it is about to kill Him, and focus instead on making a request to get out of going to the cross, the cross which had already been decided on and agreed to?
This may be somewhat of a silly example, but let’s say you are crossing the road, and on the other side you are going to give your life for somebody, something that you have decided to do. Suddenly you notice a huge truck bearing down on you, about to squash you and kill you right there and then. Would you focus right then on the giving of your life which you are going to accomplish once you cross the road, and decide that you don’t want to do it anymore, or would you cry out to God for deliverance from the truck, because you desire greatly to give your life for the purpose previously decided?
Remember that nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that Jesus was experiencing sorrow because He was thinking about the approaching Crucifixion. That thought has been added to the Scriptural account. That thought is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures.
Hebrews 12:4
You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.
How could making a request to get out of going to the cross be resisting sin? Please explain.
Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
Jesus went back to the disciples and told them to "Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." What was His temptation, His test? In what way was His flesh weak? Was He trying to get out of going to the cross, or was his life being crushed out of Him in the Garden?
Why did Jesus offer up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death? (Hebrews 5:7)
Was Jesus offering up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears, to be saved from death on the cross?
Did Jesus pray: "Not what I will, but what You will" in reference to the cross, knowing and being fully aware that He knew and knew clearly what the will of the Father was in regard to the cross?
Or was it because He did not know what the reply of the Father would be in the matter of His request to be saved from death in the Garden, being fully willing to drink that cup if that was His Father’s will, praying: "O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done."?
Jesus asked for "this cup" to be removed from Him, He wanted "this cup" to be removed, and He was willing to forgo His own will in the matter.
What was "this cup", and was it removed?
…and (He) was heard because of His godly fear
Oatmeal