bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email bibletruths.forum@gmail.com   

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Gethsemane  (Read 3213 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Oatmeal

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 80
Gethsemane
« on: October 09, 2013, 07:01:47 PM »

In the recent Syria thread I said that I had difficulty with the idea that Jesus prayed to the Father that he would not have to go to the cross.  A couple of members replied/responded to my post and then the thread digressed from that subject.  In order to reply to the responses I have re-posted the question in a new thread.

Scripture references in blue are links to those Scriptures (for your convenience).

My post in the Syria thread:

Quote from: Oatmeal

I have great difficulty with the idea that Jesus prayed to the Father that he would not have to go to the cross.  I know that is what the mainstream church teaches, but does it truly make sense, and does it agree with Scripture, and with the attitude that Jesus displayed up to that point in time?

Using the King James Version, according to the Scripture, as recorded in Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death", and as recorded in Mark 14:34: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death".

Is it possible that at that time Jesus was under such spiritual/emotional/physical pressure (whatever the reason) that he was praying to the Father that he would not die right then and there in the Garden, and his Father heard him, hearing him meaning, (as hearing does mean, doesn’t it?), that the Father said YES to his request?


The first reply:

Quote from: Craig

So does it make more sense for His Father to answer yes to the prayer to not die in the garden, and then turn around and let's Him suffer and die a horribly painful death on the cross??


There seems to have been a lack of thought in the above response.  Perhaps there was a lot of thought in the above response and it is me that is not thinking.

We are aware that Jesus’s death on the cross had/has a purpose, and that that is a fact that is beyond disputation.  If the "exceeding sorrowful unto death" means that Jesus was experiencing sorrow to the point of the cessation of the functioning of His physical body, that is, physical death, would there have been any purpose in Jesus dying in the Garden?  It therefore does make sense that the Father answered yes to the prayer to not die in the Garden, if sorrow to the point of death, and such a prayer, did occur.  The phrase "turn around" is therefore more emotive than sensible and shows, I think, a determination to push a point of view whatever the cost.  If such a prayer did not happen in the Garden then the true situation needs to be logically and clearly explained, steering clear of emotive responses as such responses are more likely to be indicative of a closed mind and error rather than openness and truth.  Such emotive responses are also dangerous.  If such a prayer did occur in the Garden, then the phrase "turn around" maligns the Father, and I think that more care needs to be taken.  If such a prayer did not take place, then perhaps it is I that is maligning the Father, although that is not my intention.

The second reply:

Quote from: Kat

Hi Oatmeal, what that prayer Jesus prayed says to me is that though the plan is absolutely determined, but by the Father. Jesus no doubt understands the will and general direction the Father is going very well, but maybe not all the future details. He did say He did not know the day and hour of His return to earth.

Mark 13:32  "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

I do not believe Jesus was asking not to die then or later, He knew that all human life depended on that. But He was a physical man and certainly had seen a crucifixion at some point, maybe His request was to "let this cup pass" or that particular way of dying. That it was possible that the Father had already determined He would die another way and that was the reason He asked. But we know He ended the prayer with "nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." He was willing to do whatever He had to, and He did!


Thank you Kat for your reply.

I think you said that you believed that Jesus was not asking not to die in the Garden, and was not asking not to die later, but was asking for clarification of details of death, as he was unsure about the method of death, and stating that He would prefer not to be crucified (to die on a cross).

Do you think that the following Scriptures reveal that Jesus was fully aware, before the time of his prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane, that He was to die on a cross?:

Jesus commanded us to each take up our cross, and follow Him: Matthew 10:37-39; Matthew 16:21-25; Mark 8:31-35;
Luke 9:22-24; Luke 14:26-27.

In three of the passages above the death of Jesus is directly linked to each of us taking up our cross.  Would not the insistence of Jesus that we each must take up our cross show that He Himself was fully aware that He would take up His, and that His cross would also be a literal physical one?

John 8:28 (LITV)
Then Jesus said to them, When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM; and from Myself I do nothing; but as My Father taught Me, these things I speak.

John 12:32-33 (KJV)
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Deuteronomy 21:23 (see Galatians 3:13 )
…for he that is hanged is accursed of God…

Psalms 22:16-17 (KJV)
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

Therefore, Kat, assuming that I understood what you said, I do not understand the basis for your claim that Jesus was seeking clarification as to the method of His death and requesting that it would not be by crucifixion.

Furthermore:

Luke 9:51 (possibly in conjunction with Isaiah 50:7)
And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,

John 12:27
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Considering that Jesus emphatically commanded each of us to take up our cross, and to die, and that He had already said that He would be lifted up, signifying what death He would die (and He was aware of the prophecy in regard to the piecing of hands and feet), and that He had steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, and that even though His soul was troubled He confirmed His commitment to continue and not to ask His Father to save Him from the hour, how can it be claimed that Jesus suddenly, upon reaching the Garden, changed His mind and ask to be excused from the cross?  Would not that make Him double minded?  Whatever it was Jesus was requesting in the Garden, it was something that He was requesting with PASSION, and with great determination, with fervour, and with COMMITMENT, and when an angel appeared unto Him to strengthen Him, HE PRAYED MORE EARNESTLY.

To not have to go to the cross?  The mind boggles.

(Luke 22:39-46; Hebrews 5:7-9)

If Jesus was referring to the cross, why did Jesus pray "Not my will, but thine, be done", when Jesus already knew the will of the Father in that matter?

Jesus said: "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30)

Jesus said: "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34)

Is this teaching, that Jesus prayed to the Father that he would not have to go to the cross, saying that Jesus did not want to die for us?

This teaching does not make sense to me.  Could someone provide further explanation?

Thanks

Oatmeal
Logged
From Micah 7:9:  By the grace and call of Yahweh I will bear the trials of the narrow way, because I have no love, until He fully shows me my sin and I am judged by Him.  He will bring me forth to the light, and I shall see His righteousness.

gregorydc

  • Guest
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2013, 08:57:13 PM »

Maybe the prayer was because Jesus loved his deciples and had more to teach them and was not ready to leave them just quite yet?  Love is a very powerful force/emotion in this vast universe. Considering that God is love, Jesus said "I and the Father are one",maybe imo this is what this prayer is about?
  Greg
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2013, 09:36:04 PM »


Hi Oatmeal,

Mat 26:36  Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, "Sit here while I go and pray over there."
v. 37  And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed.
v. 38  Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me."
v. 39  He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."

The words in this passage "this cup" is certainly speaking of His Crucifixion, and yes all the Scripture that you presented make it clear this way of death was preordained for Him. But just as it's clear that the Scripture show that the "cup" was to be by death on the cross,then it also shows that is what He was speaking of to "let pass" as well.

If that is what He was saying, then what does it mean? Well consider what state of mind Jesus was in; "sorrowful and deeply distressed," "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death," "being in agony, He prayed more earnestly," this is denoting the deepest anguish and how intense His prayer was. And He even "fell on His face," a demeanor of praying in extreme duress. I think He used “even unto death” to show just how much distress He was in. He was in so much anguish that an angel was sent to help Him and give Him strength.

Luke 22:43  Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him.

Why in the world was He so distraught over this? All your Scriptures prove that He knew what was coming and He was God in the flesh, so why this passionate, almost desperate plea to be spared from what He knew He had to do? He was fully God, but He was also fully man, often referring to Himself as the Son of man, which He uses a few verses down. As a flesh and blood man, was Jesus to experience the depth of human suffering physically and mentally? Luke goes on to say Jesus was so distraught He continued to pray and began to sweat profusely.

Luke 22:44  And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Jesus was human, a man as well as God, there is nothing inconsistent or double minded in supposing that as a man he was very deeply disturbed/troubled by what was now rapidly approaching. But He received the help He needed from the Father and so He did resolve in His own mind what He must do, as you can see by His second and third prayer.

Mat 26:42  Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done."

Mat 26:44  So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Now He has resolved (I think the Father gave Him peace with what must happen) that He must go forward and drink of that cup which awaited Him.

Mat 26:45  Then He came to His disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.
v. 46  Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand."

A thought that I have is that this struggle that Jesus had within Himself was to show that even though He was God in the flesh (which some might say gave Him the strength to easily endure His suffering and death), He was still fully flesh and blood man and He would suffer just as much as any human being would.

But I know this is my interpretation of this passage, it is what I see in it though.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 11:51:17 PM by Kat »
Logged

cjwood

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2095
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2013, 10:12:34 PM »

kat, i agree with the understanding that Jesus, as a man of flesh and blood as are we, became so greatly distressed at the ultimate physical pain and suffering He knew was coming that He cried out loud to His Father.  Jesus knew how horrible a death the cross was.  the human part of Jesus did what most any human would do knowing they were going to be crucified.  become stressed to such depths of despair that they need help just to stand up.

claudia
Logged

Joel

  • Global Moderator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 791
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2013, 01:11:27 AM »

How many times had a lamb been slain before Jesus travailed at Gethsemane? many, many times.
No one had ever felt the sins of the whole world on their shoulders before, and no one else ever will.
Had to have been untold pressure, and torment both mentally, and physically.
Jesus was very aware of what was coming as recorded in Matthew 20:17-19
17-And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them.
18-Behold, we go up to Jerusalem: and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death.
19-And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Joel

Logged

lilitalienboi16

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1870
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2013, 01:35:13 AM »

I watched a show on the history channel where they had physicians (US trained doctors) on explaining how it is possible for the human body to sweat blood under extreme extreme duress. They then also went on the explain the excruciating pain Jesus' body felt during the crucifixion etc.. but they talked about crucifixions in general as well.

I just think its interesting how they made that statement that you can sweat blood. We know Jesus in the garden prayed this prayer and its recorded for us that He did indeed sweat blood. Modern science knows this occurs only under extreme extreme curcumstances. This tells me He must have really been extremely stressed because after all, despite His divinity and being the Son of God, He still was bound to this fleshy vessel that was about to experience something absolutely horrific and HE KNEW IT!

I add this in without having read the original posters statements but to lend credence to what claudia had stated in her reply. Now I am aware of this exchange that occurred in the other thread so I will add to this:

I think Oatmeal, you should see it not as Jesus not wanting to do the work of His father, but His earthly body that carried Him was under extreme duress and in its moment of weakness His mind cried out to God looking for a way out but full well knowing (because of the Spirit of God that He also possessed, "not my will but thy will be done") that this is what He came for. To do the will of His Father.

In Christ,
Alex
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 01:39:19 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
Logged
1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

rickylittleton

  • Guest
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2013, 12:34:49 PM »

Well, just my 2 cents: Let us remember that He was in all ways temped as we are, yet without sin. Jesus was our example of going in the valley of the shadow of death. Now no wants to go, but remember He said, "Not my will but Thy will be done". So this give us to know that when we face our hour of being tried, He has already shown us, and is our example. Timothy
Logged

G. Driggs

  • Guest
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2013, 06:01:27 AM »

Hello Oatmeal,

Jesus was being tempted constantly by Satan to make things easier for Himself. I dont see how this time in the garden is any different.

Likewise no one wants to be crucified with Christ spiritually. The beast within puts up a mighty fight, so we must be dragged to Christ and the cross. I can personally say for myself that I do not want to stop sinning. But that really isnt up to me.

Heb 4:15  For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tested in every way as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16  Therefore let us approach the throne of grace with boldness, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us at the proper time.

Here a couple places Ray speaks along the same lines as others have already said in this thread.

http://www.bible-truths.com/praying.htm

THE GREATEST DRAMA OF THE AGES

If you like drama, then Matt. 26:36 is the place to find it. Few pay close attention to what is really going on in these few verses of Scripture. The humanity of Jesus is brought into direct conflict with the will of His God and Father. First I will jump ahead of our story slightly so that you understand the setting of this greatest of all prayers in the history of the universe. After praying for one hour Jesus returns a short way back to His Apostles and says:

"Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak" (Matt. 26:41).

Was the "flesh" of Jesus any stronger than that of His apostles? No, it was the same flesh. Paul tells us that, "…there is ONE kind of flesh of men…" (I Cor. 15:39). Jesus was given this same "one kind" of flesh (John 1:14 & Rom. 1:3). And so the flesh of Jesus was just as "weak" as that of His Apostles
. Jesus instructed His apostles to stay awake and pray with Him for one hour. None of them could do it. None of us could have done it. They just ate a meal and they were now sleepy (not only physically sleepy, but especially spiritually sleepy.) Now back to the beginning of this great drama:

"Then comes Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and says unto the disciples, Sit you here, while I go and pray yonder [over there.] And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee [James and John] and began to be SORROWFUL, AND VERY HEAVY. Then said He unto them, My soul [His fleshly, conscious humanity, not His spirit] is EXCEEDING SORROWFUL, EVEN UNTO DEATH [spirit doesn’t die, it is our flesh that must die.] Tarry [stay] you here, and watch with Me.

And He went a little farther, and fell on His face, and prayed saying, O MY FATHER, IF IT BE POSSIBLE, LET THIS CUP [this cup of death—being beaten beyond recognition, being made sin offering, and crucified for the sins of humanity] pass from Me: NEVERTHELESS, NOT AS I WILL, BUT AS THOU WILL" (Matt. 26:36-39).

"And there appeared an angel unto Him from heaven, strengthening Him. And being in an agony He prayed more earnestly: and His sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground" (Luke 22:43-44).

I doubt that any of us can ever fully appreciate what unfathomable human trauma and agony was taking place for those three hours in the garden that night two thousand years ago. The eternal destiny of the entire human race was at stake, and Jesus KNEW IT! And believe me, Jesus’ Father was agonizing right along with His Son:

"In all their afflictions, He [GOD] was afflicted… in His love and in His pity He redeemed them…" (Isa. 63:9).

"Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He SUFFERED" (Heb. 5:8).

And oh how Christ was suffering that night in the garden! But right there in the garden is the answer to all prayer. "O MY FATHER… nevertheless, not as I will, BUT AS THOU WILL." Jesus not only prayed that way; Jesus thought that way:

"I can of Mine Own Self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not My Own will, but the WILL OF THE FATHER WHICH HAS SENT ME" (John 5:30).

And again:

"For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine Own will, but the will of HIM THAT SENT ME" (John 6:38).

Did Jesus pray as earnestly as it is possible to pray that God would "let this cup pass?" YES, He did.

Did God grant Jesus His desire to "let this cup pass?" NO, He didn’t.

But, did Jesus get His prayer answered? YES, He surely did. How so? Because Jesus’ greater desire was that His Father’s will be done, rather than "let this cup pass." This example from our Lord is the answer to answered prayer and it is also the answer to unanswered prayer.

http://www.bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html

JESUS CHRIST DID NOT POSSES FREE WILL

I am sure that there may be more than a few out there who are by now ready to start casting stones at me. But don’t take my word for anything. Check the Scriptures.

The theory of free will argues that anyone possessing this God-defying power can freely choose his own course in life by making his own decisions and choices that are CAUSED by no thing or no one. Every free-willer is said to have the power to do or not do, to think or not think, anything they wish, without anything causing them to do contrariwise. So surely Jesus possessed this power as well, did He not? Not.

Here is a blanket statement of Scripture that proves Jesus did no more have a "free will" than anyone else does:

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, but what He sees the Father do: for what things so ever He does, these also does the Son likewise" (John 5:19).

Do you know of one Scripture that contradicts this verse in John 5:19? If you don’t then you must admit that Jesus could not do anything by a supposed "free will" which is said to have the ability to act independently of God.

But wait, there’s more:

Jesus plainly had a will, but the Father willed that Jesus would bring His will into line with that of His Father. The Father would not allow Jesus to give up the good fight of faith. It pleased God to bruise His Son for our salvation,

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief: When you shall make His soul an offering for sin…" (Isa. 53:10).

God said that He would "make" the soul of Jesus an offering for sin. God doing the "making" is the CAUSE. Therefore, Jesus was not free to run from the cross. God inspired Jesus [caused] Him to pray. And God caused Jesus to pray that His Father’s will, would be done, not His Own will. It was a real battle for a few hours. The will of Jesus cried out for another way other than to drink the cup and go to the cross. Hour after hour He poured out His heart to His Father. And hour after hour His Father propped Him up so that He would not and could not give in to His flesh.

God MADE Jesus go through that spiritual battle of His will, but never for a second was the plan of God in jeopardy! God had clearly prophesied the positive outcome of this battle hundreds of years before its actual occurrence. And absolutely nothing in the history of the universe has ever thwarted God’s plan, purpose or intention.

The Father inspired [caused, made] Jesus state time after time, "Not My will but Thine, Not My will but Thine, NOT MY WILL BUT THINE"!!

It was the very words of His Father that Jesus prayed. Those words that came out of the mouth of Jesus first came out of the heart of His Father, and God’s Words never ever return to Him void.

"So shall My word be that goes forth out of My mouth [and into the mouth of Jesus]: it shall NOT RETURN UNTO ME [as when Jesus prayed back those same words to His Father] VOID, but it SHALL ACCOMPLISH that which I please, and IT SHALL PROSPER in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isa. 55:11).
Logged

Oatmeal

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 80
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2013, 02:43:12 AM »

Thanks for the replies everyone.

There are some aspects of the story of the Garden of Gethsemane that I still cannot accept.

* Everybody groans *

* How can Oatmeal be so thick *

When I say "the story of the Garden of Gethsemane" I am talking about what we are told about the story that is inclusive of things that the Scriptures do not actually say, and thus cannot be agreed with Scripture and cannot be proved as factual.

Please be patient and please make a true and genuine effort to understand what I am saying, putting aside the temptation to read quickly because you already "know the facts" of the story.

Let me give you two facts to start with, facts that to the best of my ability and knowledge are verified by the Scriptures.

The Scriptures do not say that "this cup" (as opposed to "the cup") is the Cross.

The Scriptures do not say that Jesus was sorrowful because He was thinking about the approaching Crucifixion.

Search the Scriptures and see for yourself.

The above two "facts" have been added to the Scriptural account, and then more has been added to that.

Even if you should adamantly insist that those things have those meanings it does not make it so, nor can it make it so.

I am definitely open to correction in this.  I do ask that you do read and consider carefully before formulating any reply.

I have written a reply to Kat, and for convenience and to save time I will leave things in that format:


Hi Kat, and thanks everyone for your comments.


The words in this passage "this cup" is certainly speaking of His Crucifixion…
 
But just as it's clear that the Scripture show that the "cup" was to be by death on the cross…

But I know this is my interpretation of this passage, it is what I see in it though.


The Scripture does not say that "this cup" is the cross.  It is you that says that.  Because you think that it must be the cross, you say that it is the cross.  You are aware that the Crucifixion is coming up, and you assume that "this cup" is the cross.

Let us not go beyond what the Scriptures say in this, and let us listen to and take note of what the Scriptures say, using the version that you used:

From Matthew:

Matthew 26:36-38 (NKJV)
Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, "Sit here while I go and pray over there." And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed. Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me."

From Mark:

Mark 14:32-34
Then they came to a place which was named Gethsemane; and He said to His disciples, "Sit here while I pray." And He took Peter, James, and John with Him, and He began to be troubled and deeply distressed. Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch."

The word "troubled" in Mark is translated in the KJV as "sore amazed" and in the CLV as "overawed".

The Scriptures say that this experience of sorrow and deep distress began in the Garden.  The word  "began" shows from Scripture (it is not speculation) that this experience was not happening before Jesus got to the Garden and that it began after He got there.

What was the cause of the sorrow?  Where did it come from?  The Scriptures do not say, so why should we speculate on that?  However you speculate, and you assume, that it was because of the cross.  Where do you get that idea?  It’s not from the Scriptures, because the Scriptures do not tell us that.

Perhaps there is a clue.  The experience of sorrow started suddenly.  It was not there, and then it was.  Does that mean that the source was external?   Let’s not consider that matter any further at this time.

In the sentence spoken by Jesus: "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death.", here is a definition of the word translated 'to':

Short Definition: until, as far as
Definition: (a) conj: until, (b) prep: as far as, up to, as much as, until.

So what was Jesus saying, without us speculating, without us adding, without us taking away, but by looking at the words?

My soul is sorrowful, as far as, to the point of, death.

Jesus was experiencing sorrow to the point of the cessation of the functioning of His physical body.  We know this without any doubt, we know this without question, and we know this without using speculation.  The Scriptures tell us so.  Jesus told us so.

Jesus was committed in going to the cross.  We are sure of this from the Scriptures.  He was not double-minded in His purpose.  But suddenly, we are told (not by Scripture), even though He was about to die in the Garden, Jesus became unconcerned about that and very concerned about trying to get out of going to the cross.  He became so concerned about trying to get out of going to the cross that He completely forgot that He was about to die in the Garden.

You have got to be kidding me.

Remember that the Scriptures do not say that "this cup" was the cross.  You did.  The Scriptures do not say that the sorrow was because the Crucifixion was approaching.  You did.  The Scriptures say that the sorrow began after Jesus arrived at the Garden and that Jesus experienced sorrow as far as, up to, as much as, until, death.  Take note of what the Scriptures say, but go no further.  Do not add to the Scriptures.

Jesus was about to die, and He had to resist that death with all of His being.

I did not make it up that Jesus was about to die, in the Garden.  It is not speculation on my behalf.  It is not assumption.  I did not dream it up one day while lying in bed.  The Scriptures say so.

Jesus was about to die, and He had to resist that death with all of His being.  An angel was sent to strengthen Him.

Do you think that an angel was sent to Jesus to give Jesus the strength to ask even more fervently to get out of going to the cross?  Was the Father now being double-minded?

"This cup" was the cup that Jesus was experiencing right then and there in the Garden. 

Jesus announces to the three disciples that He is sorrowful, even to death.  He asks the disciples to watch with Him.  His attention is focused on the immediate problem, and it is a serious one.  He immediately goes and asks for "this cup" to be removed.  What cup?  The cup of the cross?  How could it be the cup of the cross?  How could Jesus, not only because of the sorrow unto death that He is experiencing but because of His commitment to His Father, and to us, suddenly lose focus on the immediate problem of His experiencing sorrow unto death, so much sorrow that it is about to kill Him, and focus instead on making a request to get out of going to the cross, the cross which had already been decided on and agreed to?

This may be somewhat of a silly example, but let’s say you are crossing the road, and on the other side you are going to give your life for somebody, something that you have decided to do.  Suddenly you notice a huge truck bearing down on you, about to squash you and kill you right there and then.  Would you focus right then on the giving of your life which you are going to accomplish once you cross the road, and decide that you don’t want to do it anymore, or would you cry out to God for deliverance from the truck, because you desire greatly to give your life for the purpose previously decided?

Remember that nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that Jesus was experiencing sorrow because He was thinking about the approaching Crucifixion.  That thought has been added to the Scriptural account.  That thought is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures.

Hebrews 12:4
You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.

How could making a request to get out of going to the cross be resisting sin?  Please explain.

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

Jesus went back to the disciples and told them to "Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."  What was His temptation, His test?  In what way was His flesh weak?  Was He trying to get out of going to the cross, or was his life being crushed out of Him in the Garden?

Why did Jesus offer up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death?  (Hebrews 5:7)

Was Jesus offering up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears, to be saved from death on the cross?

Did Jesus pray: "Not what I will, but what You will" in reference to the cross, knowing and being fully aware that He knew and knew clearly what the will of the Father was in regard to the cross?

Or was it because He did not know what the reply of the Father would be in the matter of His request to be saved from death in the Garden, being fully willing to drink that cup if that was His Father’s will, praying: "O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done."?

Jesus asked for "this cup" to be removed from Him, He wanted "this cup" to be removed, and He was willing to forgo His own will in the matter. 

What was "this cup", and was it removed?

…and (He) was heard because of His godly fear

Oatmeal
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 07:36:01 PM by Oatmeal »
Logged
From Micah 7:9:  By the grace and call of Yahweh I will bear the trials of the narrow way, because I have no love, until He fully shows me my sin and I am judged by Him.  He will bring me forth to the light, and I shall see His righteousness.

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2013, 01:38:46 PM »


Oatmeal, there are Scripture that clearly indicate that the "cup" was the cross.

John 18:1  When Jesus had spoken these words, He went out with His disciples over the Brook Kidron, where there was a garden, which He and His disciples entered.
v. 2  And Judas, who betrayed Him, also knew the place; for Jesus often met there with His disciples.
v. 3  Then Judas, having received a detachment of troops, and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, came there with lanterns, torches, and weapons.
v. 4  Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, "Whom are you seeking?"
v. 5  They answered Him, "Jesus of Nazareth."
    Jesus said to them, "I am He." And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them.
v. 6  Now when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground.
v. 7  Then He asked them again, "Whom are you seeking?"
    And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth."
v. 8  Jesus answered, "I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,"
v. 9  that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."
v. 10  Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
v. 11  So Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?"

In this passage it is rather obvious what the cup is. Another place is in Matthew 20, which it is inferred, but it show "My cup" when speaking of His death and that of the disciples as well.

Mat 20:22  But Jesus answered and said, "You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" They said to Him, "We are able."
v. 23  So He said to them, "You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father."

The "cup" that He was about to drink was the "baptism" of His suffering and death and all but one (John) of the disciples would also have violent deaths. Jesus also spoke of how He was "distressed" over this baptism/death and this is quite some time before Gethsemane. Here is another place in Scripture that it ties in the distress He was feeling in connect with what He knew was to come.

Luke 12:50  But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!

So here are the Scriptures that show me that the "cup" that He wanted to pass in Gethsemane was most certainly His suffering and death, if you see it differently, well that is your business.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 06:11:38 PM by Kat »
Logged

microlink

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2013, 02:06:00 PM »

I agree with Kat
Logged
3 John 4 - I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

lilitalienboi16

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1870
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2013, 04:06:10 PM »

I am also of like mind with Kat on this matter.
Logged
1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Oatmeal

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 80
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2013, 08:33:33 PM »


Kat, I was asking for clarification on "this cup" not the "cup".

Oatmeal
Logged
From Micah 7:9:  By the grace and call of Yahweh I will bear the trials of the narrow way, because I have no love, until He fully shows me my sin and I am judged by Him.  He will bring me forth to the light, and I shall see His righteousness.

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2013, 09:06:53 PM »


I believe that "this cup" that He prayed about in the Gethsemane garden is what was just hours away at that time, His arrest that would lead to all His intense suffering and crucifixion. The other Scriptures that I posted about "the cup and My cup," I believe were speaking of the same thing, His suffering leading up to His death on the cross. That's why I posted them, He used the same metaphor 'cup' for what He was to undergo as He spoke of in the garden prayer.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 12:47:56 PM by Kat »
Logged

Dave in Tenn

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4118
    • FaceBook David Sanderson
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2013, 09:17:10 PM »

Ray explained about the 'three days in the heart of the earth' that it included His 'gesthsemane' experience.  It's worth remembering that, and not a stretch to see 'it' as part of the cup He was referring to in His prayer. 
Logged
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

cjwood

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2095
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2013, 11:12:47 PM »

"this" cup, "the" cup, "My" cup, it's all the same cup oatmeal.  it became much more intense once He was in the garden of gethsemane.  Jesus knew that His distress and turmoil would not end until He was dead.  the betrayal by judas, the denial by peter, the apostles being scattered, the beatings and lashings that brought Him within an inch of His life, the nails piercing his hands and feet when being attached to the cross, the lifting Him up and the tearing and stretching of His flesh, the long hours of tremendous pain and suffering, then the piercing of His side with the sword.  it is ALL the same cup.  and it did not end until He died. 

claudia
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2013, 11:28:21 PM »


Thanks Dave for bringing that up. Here is an email that Ray spoke on Christ being in the "heart of the earth."

http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm#three ----------------------


Hello Ray,

On your Email question and answer on a reply to a question you  mention Matt.12;40 saying that the verse is not speaking about the length of time that Jesus was buried. Why is your view changed?

Urban

[Ray Replies]

Dear Urban:

You are a pretty sharp guy to catch that! I will write a separate paper on this subject in the near future, or I may incorporate it into my paper on "The Lake of Fire."

I changed my view, because as of three months ago, I realized I was teaching heresy regarding these "three days and three nights." I spent tens of hours on this subject a couple of months back, when I should have been writing on my paper. A friend believed that "three days and three nights" could mean any part of three days and three nights. I said that "three days and three nights" could not possibly means "Friday night, Saturday day, and Saturday night." That's only ONE day and TWO nights.

I calculated EVERY CONCEIVABLE way possible to have Christ resurrected early Sunday morning while it was just beginning to dawn, and yet, go backwards "three NIGHTS and three DAYS" and arrive a time and day that would fit all of the other statements regarding the crucifixion, burial, and resurrection--the Passover preparation day, the hurrying to bury Christ because of impending weekly Sabbath, that that Sabbath that year was "an high or holy" day in addition to being the weekly sabbath, etc., etc.

Anyway, I found that IT CANNOT BE DONE!  IT WON'T FIT! No matter how anyone configures the Passover, Days of Unleavened Bread, weekly Sabbath, etc., IT CANNOT BE DONE--it will not fit. I spent hours and hours just on the Scripture in Luke's account where the men going to Emmaus were accosted by our Lord, and one of them remarked, "And beside all this, TO DAY IS THE THIRD DAY since these things were done" (Luke 24:21). But I found one translation that said, "Besides all this, IT HAS ALREADY BEEN THREE DAYS since these things were done."  I thought I was really on to something here. NOT!

I obviously prayed to God to give me understanding. After one of my intense sessions with the Scriptures regarding this matter, I went to the kitchen for a drink, and while on my way God turned on a light bulb in my spirit. I had FAILED MYSELF TO DO WHAT I HAVE BEEN TEACHING OTHERS.  I was thrilled with the answer--God gave me the answer.

I called Michael, and informed him that "he was RIGHT after all."  By combining ALL of the Scriptural statements regarding Christ's crucifixion, He HAD to be buried on Friday evening and raised Sunday morning! And Michael was delighted to know that he was right after all. But my next statement floored him. I then told Michael that I WAS RIGHT ALSO. THAT JESUS CHRIST REALLY WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH!

Well, Michael was now bewildered--HOW CAN THAT BE, THAT'S A CONTRADICTION!  I told him that it is no contradiction, we were both right and we were both wrong. Jesus Christ was buried Friday evening and rose Sunday morning, and yet, was also "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Two things I neglected to follow: 

Jesus Christ ALWAYS, ALWAYS spoke to the multitudes in public in PARABLES. Parables are not LITERAL, neither do they lie. I neglected to treat this teaching of Jesus as a "parable."

It NOWHERE SAYS that Jesus would be "DEAD for three days and three nights." I just ASSUMED that is what was meant by the phrase "in the HEART OF THE EARTH."

I'll just give you the gist of the answer, as my time is limited right now. Jesus called "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH," "the SIGN of Jonah."  Now then, if Christ was to be DEAD for the exact period of TIME of three days and three nights, How then could that be "the sign of Jonah?" JONAH WAS NOT DEAD AT ALL!!! Jonah went through 'A LIVING HELL' if you will! Besides, Jesus was NOT buried in the "HEART" of the earth, He was buried in an ABOVE THE EARTH TOMB! Maybe twenty inches or so on the other side of a big stone. 

"In the HEART OF THE EARTH" is a parable showing the unbelievable agony of the human spirit and flesh that Jesus would go through LEADING UP TO and INCLUDING the time in the tomb. And those three days began on the PREPARATION FOR THE PASSOVER, seeing that Jesus, HIMSELF, was to BE THE PASSOVER!!!

And don't forget the AGONY IN THE GARDEN when Jesus SWEAT BLOOD!! No one will ever know what torture He endured those "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH." BEFORE the beatings and crucifixion we read this: 

"NOW is My SOUL TROUBLED [Greek: DISTRESSED, IN TURMOIL!]; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour: but for his cause came I unto THIS HOUR" (John 23:27).

The "heart of the earth" is the very DEPTH OF THE FLESH. The flesh of man is "of the EARTH, EARTHY" Paul tells us.

Again, thank you for your keen observation.

God be with you,

Ray
Logged

cjwood

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2095
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2013, 12:26:58 AM »

that is the perfect email for oatmeal's question(s) kat.  thank you for pulling it up.

claudia
Logged

Rene

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1445
Re: Gethsemane
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2013, 11:58:16 AM »

Along with the wonderful teaching on "three days and three nights," there is another great lesson to be learned from Ray's email reply. 

No matter how many hours you may study or focus on scripture, unless God open your understanding to truth, you could be guilty of passing on heresy to others if what you teach is not truth. :-X     

René
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.125 seconds with 28 queries.