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Author Topic: Predestined  (Read 5971 times)

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rick

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Predestined
« on: October 13, 2013, 01:57:06 PM »

I'm back to reading the lake of fire series again but I was thinking about God and how he predestined those who he has called but did God also predestined everyone who has ever lived ? I ask this question because I'm thinking that God is sovereign and so I'm thinking he predestined everyone and everything.

Now having said that, then for me to ask God for or to do anything would be futile in as much as everything is planed out from the beginning. So now to pray for someone or to ask for something of God would be useless unless it was already planed out from the beginning. 

I remember reading something Ray said about God can't be sovereign if six billions people on earth have free will doing what ever they want going against Gods will. But we know that no one has free will or even free choice .So not only believers are predestined but also non believes would also have to be predestine too. Is this and accurate knowledge or is this a deception thinking along these lines ?

Love and peace to all.
 
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Kat

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Re: Predestined
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2013, 02:57:17 PM »


Hi Rick,

Things can seem confusing when you think that God is indeed sovereign, so things are going to happen just as He ordains them to... so why pray? I believe our prayers are for our benefit, it is one of the ways we connect to the spiritual realm, to God. He wants to hear us say what we think, I think it also helps us to to think things through and actually put our request in words.

Jesus Christ was a man that experienced this life too, so He can sympathize with our feelings. It is a good practice for us to turn to Him for any and every reason, to talk to Him about what we feel, it is a way to draw closer to Him. He is the One whom we totally rely on for everything, so it is good for us to draw close and seek out our God.

I also think it is a way to worship and show appreciation for all we have. Sure God knows what we think and if He has made us happy, but just like we like to hear someone make the effort to voice their appreciation, I think God does too.

Here is an excerpt from the article 'Praying By God's Rules.'

http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm -------------------

AN AMAZING SCRIPTURE ON PRAYER HIDDEN IN THE KING JAMES

This Scripture will blow you away if you have never before seen it properly translated. Here it is first in the King James Version:

"For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, why does he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not then do we with patience wait for it. Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities, for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Rom. 8:24-26).

Paul makes a connection between "hope" and "prayer." Hope is something we expect, but do not as yet experience. All of Christendom has this subject wrong when they claim that they are already in this life "saved" in the past tense. Paul tells us that we are "saved by hope," but if it is already a reality, then there is no need to still be hoping for it. He then states that, "Likewise…" (in the same way and manner) when it comes to praying, "we know NOT what we should pray for." Just as we do not yet SEE what it is that we "hope for" (we do not yet possess it,) likewise we do not see what we are to "pray for" based on another one of God’s rules, not based on our ignorance (or ‘as we ought’.) This much we can learn from the King James.

But the real problem with the King James is the next phrase "as we ought." That unfortunately does not carry the impact of what this most profound verse is telling us. The Greek word translated we ought is defined by Dr. Strong as follows:

G1163

de??

dei

die, deh-on'

“Third person singular active present of G1210; also δεόν deon which is neuter active participle of the same; both used impersonally; it is (was, etc.) necessary (as binding): - beho{o}ved, be meet, must (needs), (be) need (-ful), ough[t]".

This is a dogmatic word—NECESSARY, BINDING, BEHOOVES, MUST BE, NEEDFUL.

Fifty-eight times this word dei is translated "must;" and seven times "behooved;" and five times "must needs". When we read this verse in the King James and many versions that copy the King James, we get the feeling that Paul is stating that we just don’t know how to pray as well as we could or should pray. This is not the point of his declaration. Paul is stating that the knowledge necessary to pray according to what MUST BE (what God has already predestined and determined is and must be done in His plan and purpose,) none of us are aware. None of us knows for sure what MUST BE in God’s purpose, and so we cannot possibly always pray for what God desires for us to have. This being so then, God’s Spirit aids our infirmity in this area and helps us pray according to God’s will, which is just another way of saying according to what must be.

Notice how this word is emphatically used throughout the New Testament:

"And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not trouble: for all these things must [Gk; die] come to pass, but the end is not yet" (Matt. 24:6).

Jesus is not saying that these things "ought" come to pass, but rather they MUST come to pass.

-- Likewise: "…the Son of man must [Gk: die] suffer…" (Mark 8:31).

-- Not that He only "ought" to suffer. "…for such things must needs be…" (Mark 13:7).

-- "…the gospel must first be published…" (Mark 13:10).

-- "I must be about My Father’s business" (Luke 2:49).

-- "Ye must be born again" (John 3:7).

-- "…that He must rise again from the dead" (John 20:9).

-- "…we must through much tribulation…" (Acts 14:22), etc., etc., etc.

Prayer must be in accord with what "must be." Here are a couple of versions that bring this out clearly:

"And, in like manner also, the Spirit doth help our weaknesses; for, what we may pray for, as it behoveth us , we have not known, but the Spirit himself doth make intercession for us with groanings unutterable" (Rom. 8:26, Young’s Literal Translation.)

The word "behoove" means "necessary." Not what should or might be, but what is absolutely "necessary." And "necessary" is the first definition of this word in Strong’s Greek Dictionary.

"Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings" (Rom. 8:26, Concordant Literal New Testament.)

This version, along with Young's gets the word order correct according to the Greek manuscripts, and therefore also showing that it is not "as we ought" that is being discussed, but "what must be."

Notice the word order from a few Interlinears:

"In like manner and also the Spirit jointly helps our weaknesses; for that which we should pray for according as it beho{o}ves [is ‘necessary’], we know not, but itself the Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings inexpressible" (Rom. 8:26, Interlinear Greek-English New Testament by Berry, Zondervan.)

"In like manner and also the spirit helps the weaknesses of us; the for what we should pray as it behoves, not we know, but itself the spirit intercedes on behalf of us with groans unspoken" (Emphatic Diaglott Interlinear.)

"AS-SAMELY YET AND THE spirit is-TOGETHER-supporting to-THE UN-FIRMNESS OF-US THE for ANY WE-SHOULD-BE-PRAYING according-to-WHICH IS-BINDING NOT WE-HAVE-PERCEIVED but SAME THE spirit IS-OVER-pleadING to-groanings UN-TALKED" (Concordant Greek Text, an Ultraliteral English Translation in the Sublinear.) (All underlines are mine.)

The reason that translators and expositors do not teach the truth on this verse is because they don’t believe it is true as written in the manuscripts. It appears from most translations and virtually all teaching on the subject of prayer, that they cannot believe the truth of this verse because it substantiates the Sovereignty of God and contradicts man’s fabled free will. To better understand what is being taught here on prayer, I will now quote Rom. 8:26 and continue through verses 27 and 28 from the Concordant Literal New Testament:

Now similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings. Now He Who is searching the hearts is aware what is the disposition of the spirit, for in accord with God [with God’s will] is it pleading for the saints. Now we are aware that God [KJV leaves out "God"] is working all together for the good [things don’t "work together for good" by themselves—ALL good comes from God—James 1:17] of those who are loving God…"

Let’s now understand this most profound truth. It isn’t just that, "…we know not what we should pray for as we ought…" No, it is much more profound than just that; it is that "….for we know not what we should pray for, to accord with what MUST BE, we are not aware…" Why does the spirit aid our infirmity? What is our infirmity? Our infirmity is that we don’t know what to pray for that will absolutely always be in accord with what must be God’s will, and God’s will is "what must be." And since none of us has perfect foreknowledge of what God’s will must be, God’s spirit aids those who are obedient to Him, in requesting and praying about the right things, so our prayers aren’t in vain.

It is the will and plan and preordained purpose of God Almighty, that’s what "MUST BE." "THY WILL BE done" (Matt. 6:10). Yes, God’s will MUST be done—always! One day we will all come to believe and appreciate the fact that God is Sovereign. God is always right. God always does what is best and perfect. And so it is vain to pray for something that is NOT "in accord with what MUST BE."

And only then does verse 28 make sense. Things don’t "just happen" to people who love and obey God (as most translations suggest in this verse.) No, we should now be willing to accept the truth "…that GOD [The King James leaves out the ‘God’ in this verse as if things just work themselves out without God] is working all together for the good…" And how is it that God works?

"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11).

And so, if we always pray according to God’s Will, with a clean conscience, obeying the commandments of God, and are aided by the Holy Spirit of God to pray only "in accord with what MUST BE," we will begin seeing answered prayer where we may have been frustrated in the past.
----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 10:02:03 PM by Kat »
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rick

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Re: Predestined
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2013, 03:44:45 PM »

                                                       Hi Kat



  Thank you for posting ( how to pray by Gods rules ) and also for your comments as well, I understand now and have the answer I was seeking.

Thank you again. I feel so totally bless being a part of this community of believers.

Love and peace to all.
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cjwood

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Re: Predestined
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2013, 07:56:18 PM »

whenever i wonder about praying, i remember that even Jesus prayed to His Father while on this earth.  He knew praying was an important connection to God the Father, even with the deep connection He already had with Him.  that is our example.

claudia 

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Predestined
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2013, 09:43:08 PM »

We are predestined to good works.  The question concerning the wicked isn't WHETHER they are predestined to walk in them, but WHEN. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

thewatchman

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Re: Predestined
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2013, 11:41:40 PM »

Praying and seeking God has nothing to do with God, but it is about us learning to come into agreement with God and his will. He is self sufficient and doesn't need us, but we still need him. So, we pray and he changes us and helps us overcome through dealings and trials.  That's the process. Predestination is about the destination, not the journey towards that destination.  8)
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Predestined
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2013, 05:54:03 PM »

On the contrary, watchman, it is also about the "journey".  The Lord hardens hearts too.  But He doesn't keep them hard.  He sends lying spirits, but He casts them into the LOF.  Everything is necessary for His purpose.  Indeed, what little we know of a "destination" in my view is just another part of a journey we can't wrap our minds around.  "Of the INCREASE of His Government and of peace there shall be no end."  No destination in sight there, to my mind. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

loretta

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Re: Predestined
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2013, 06:51:08 AM »

In his message of April, 2011, Ray wrote

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12934.0.html

Again, I want to thank those who are still helping me with these expenses!  And I especially thank all those who are praying for me.  It is obvious that God is, at least presently, keeping me alive because of what you are doing. God honors your prayers and your generosity.

At first reading it appears that it contradicts what Ray wrote about prayer and praying by God's rules.  But in hindsight, Ray knew that medically his body was as good as dead, but God had willed otherwise to keep him alive longer.  So it can be correctly assumed that the BT forum family was praying according to the will of God, guided by God's Holy spirit. 

But what did he mean when he wrote, 'God honors your prayers and your generosity?'  Surely Ray knew what he was writing.  What am I missing here?  Now, I am so confused about God's sovereignty and prayer. :( 

And I'd love to believe that what Ray wrote is true.

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cjwood

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Re: Predestined
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2013, 12:48:03 PM »

Again, I want to thank those who are still helping me with these expenses!  And I especially thank all those who are praying for me.  It is obvious that God is, at least presently, keeping me alive because of what you are doing. God honors your prayers and your generosity.


...But what did he mean when he wrote, 'God honors your prayers and your generosity?'  Surely Ray knew what he was writing.  What am I missing here?  Now, I am so confused about God's sovereignty and prayer. :( 

And I'd love to believe that what Ray wrote is true.



loretta, with regards to ray's referencing God's honoring the prayers and generosity, i believe he was speaking of the forum members who continued to contribute financially to him personally, and to the bible-truths website.  that is what he meant by "generosity".

claudia

« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 12:52:03 PM by cjwood »
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thewatchman

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Re: Predestined
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2013, 10:52:40 PM »

On the contrary, watchman, it is also about the "journey".  The Lord hardens hearts too.  But He doesn't keep them hard.  He sends lying spirits, but He casts them into the LOF.  Everything is necessary for His purpose.  Indeed, what little we know of a "destination" in my view is just another part of a journey we can't wrap our minds around.  "Of the INCREASE of His Government and of peace there shall be no end."  No destination in sight there, to my mind.

No Dave,
You are wrong. Predestination is about the destination we are predestined for. The place Christ has prepared for us. It is not a building, but it is a state of being. A spiritual dwelling so to speak. Fit for his habitation. That determines the journey taken and the lessons learned. If it a different destination then the journey changes. The destination is Christ within us, our hope of glory. To become like him. I can wrap my mind around that as a concept even though I don't know how God will lead me. The hardening and softening are all just part of the process of the journey, though the journey is not the ultimate destination. But each step necessary to reach the destination. So that one day we can say "I have run my race, I have finished my course." Judged now so that we need not be judged later. Vessels unto honour as the Master sees fit.
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Joel

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Re: Predestined
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2013, 12:14:59 AM »

A couple of scriptures that are pretty matter- of- fact along these lines are;

Proverbs16:9-A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

Pslam 37:23-The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.


Joel
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loretta

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Re: Predestined
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2013, 09:21:39 AM »


loretta, with regards to ray's referencing God's honoring the prayers and generosity, i believe he was speaking of the forum members who continued to contribute financially to him personally, and to the bible-truths website.  that is what he meant by "generosity".

Tks Claudia, that does make sense.  I suppose Ray meant that although God does not change his stated will, he does acknowledge (honor) our prayers and purposes of heart.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Predestined
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2013, 11:05:29 AM »

I'm not going to argue over words.  It came as no surprise to God that Pharaoh would not let His children go.  Even when Pharaoh WANTED to do so, the Lord hardened his heart.  Thankfully, for Pharaoh, that is not his "destination".  Peter denied that he would deny the Lord when the Lord informed him that he would.  He did deny the Lord.  But he didn't deny the Lord later.  If the Lord's "prophecy" that he would deny Him is not "predestination", or a revelation of a thing "predestined", then I don't know what it means.  NOTHING that happens is outside the purpose of God.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

thewatchman

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Re: Predestined
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2013, 09:27:00 PM »

I'm not going to argue over words.  It came as no surprise to God that Pharaoh would not let His children go.  Even when Pharaoh WANTED to do so, the Lord hardened his heart.  Thankfully, for Pharaoh, that is not his "destination".  Peter denied that he would deny the Lord when the Lord informed him that he would.  He did deny the Lord.  But he didn't deny the Lord later.  If the Lord's "prophecy" that he would deny Him is not "predestination", or a revelation of a thing "predestined", then I don't know what it means.  NOTHING that happens is outside the purpose of God.

Dave,
We clearly have different ideas on what predestination means. Because I never mentioned anything that you pointed out. I'm talking the final destination God made available to man and you seem to be talking about prophecy which seems to point towards actions predetermined by God while they live. That is not what the original scriptures we are talking about means.

Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is clearly talking about something else than you are, but I do see the point you are trying to make. Our steps are ordered of the Lord.

To bring it back to the original post though, even though we are going through what God has ordained, we still need to pray, still need to study? Why? Because we're not there yet. We still have further to run. Our participation is necessary.



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