Can one Know ?

[rick]

Can one know for sure or with certainty which group one is in ? The many and the few . How does one discern ? Does not the called and the few as well as all of Christendom believe they know Jesus ?
Out of the three groups I have mentioned only one group does Christ know which is the few however the other two groups believe Christ knows them too.                             

We know the whole world is deceived through believing they have free will which is the Christendom group.

The many group are called of God but are not chosen . Is the called group one and the same as the Christendom group ?

Yes that must be the answer the few is one group and all of Christendom is the called group.
How does one know with certainty one is not being deceived by ones own self ? Can it be said if one does not sin they are of the elect ? If one does sin they are of the called group ?

Does one need to wait until the resurrection to know ? Or can one know before the resurrection ?


Peace and love to all .

[Rhys 🕊]

I don't think you can know and I think God doesn't want you to know. What we do know is that Christ is doing a work in us. I'm sure I wouldn't be here if He wasn't.

Don't know if I'm one of the elect, still have sins to deal with but I know with God's strength they are dealt with......slowly. If you still sin you can still be one of the elect, your still in the process of God working in you for that.

There are only the few and the many so even if not part of Christendom you could still be part of the many.

I don't concern myself about it as I'm either one or not. All I can do now is respond to Him and trust Him. What He has willed will be done so don't sweat it.

How can you be 100% sure you are one of the elect in this life?


From Ray's emails
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2059.msg16747.html#msg16747

Ray,

Thank you for your work.

Is there an article or book I can look at which will discuss "The Elect" found in the new testament from the universal salvation perspective??

Are "The elect" the sheep that Jesus talks about which will be seperated from the goats??

If so can someone be one of the elect(sheep) and then lose his way and then at the judgement be placed not with the sheep but with the goats??

Sorry, I don't write very well but hope the above makes a little sense.

Thank you again for your work.

Kelly


Dear Kelly:
Those whom God has foreordained to be the elect will always be the elect. The chosen elect cannot be lost.  But you and I do not know exactly who is and who isn't an elect. Only God's knows those who are His, and therefore, we can never let down our guard, because we might only think that we are elect.  I have seen and witnessed this with my own eyes where those who appeared to be elect, turned and now blaspheme the name of the Saviour they claimed to worship a short while back.
Sorry, don't know of any books that you can read on this subject.
God be with you,
Ray

Rhys

[thewatchman]

The short answer is no. We won't know we have crossed the finish line until we do. All we can do to make our calling and election sure is to walk as much in obedience as we can. Obedience is the currency of the kingdom and is true worship. 

[Rhys 🕊]

I still struggle with one point of knowing or not knowing and that is if we are going through trials and tribulation now and overcoming our sins and having a change of heart therefore becoming more like Christ is this not a sign that you are one of Gods elect. Why be judged now if your not one of God's elect only to be judged again at the resurrection?

I know God is at work and much of it is unpleasant. If I'm not being judged now then what is going on?

Judgement is on the house of God now and if we claim to be of the house of God then don't you claim to be one of the elect?

Got me thinking a bit as when you know God is working in you and you are overcoming and the rest of it like God is preparing you for something, what is it then if your not one of the elect that God is preparing you for if your being judged or is it that I mistake His ways thinking they are judgements when they are not.

Why have such a strong desire to be righteous and overcome as is something that consumes you if you are still going to be judged in the next life or does God still have a part for you to play because His word does not go out and come back empty to Him. It achieves something. I'm not sure I'm making much sense or my point is not coming across. If your passionate about the things of God above all other things then why if not one of the elect do you feel that way?

I know that if He has begun a good work in you He will complete it but I think about such things more deeply at times as desire more of His truth. It's already written whether we are or not and I'm happy whatever He has for me but that shouldn't stop us from asking questions and seeking after Him.

I feel that as I discover more of His truth I see more of what He is doing and seeing clearly that it's not me and asking more what is God doing here and why. I love him and are passionate about His ways and He put that in me for a reason but for what reason. I'm not content with the pleasures of sin and that's His doing too. If He is making you one of His elect then it makes sense but if not then for what purpose is He planning. Perhaps best we don't know but rejoice that He is using us in some way and we are part of His plan.

Anyway all good.....just airing my thought laundry and I think it got caught out in the rain 

Rhys

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Rhys

Ray pointes out that good and evil in the fruit of the tree of knowledge is ONE FRUIT.

The human mind that is overwrought with religious conditioning, automatically and habitually makes simplicity very complicated.

God is Sovereign,  over all things and everything, even Jesus Christ.

Arc

[rick]

                          Hi Rhys


I believe if God is not calling someone then that one would not have any interest in God or the things of God or perhaps not even think of God at all.

Im excited about the truths I've learned about God through Rays teaching and find myself the whole day through thinking about God and His plan for His creation and what He's doing in my life.

I know no matter what all will come to a full knowledge of God in this life or the next life or after the resurrection , I know Ray said that more people will be saved after death than before death.

I just like everyone on B.T. have come from the religious background where truth was distorted. The last church place I had attended I was personally ask by the minister if I had ask Jesus in my life and he went on to say to me if I have not I would go to hell when I die and he also told me God does not sent people to hell but we send our self there by rejecting Christ and of course I had to ask Jesus in my life before I died or for me it would be to late.

I can't express the joy I had after reading The lake of fire series and discovering the truth opposed to the lie I had received from Christendom. The 2nd lie I discovered was not having free will or choice which was indeed taught by the church, you know ( its up to me to choose Christ ) that was another lie. These two truths alone has change my life in many ways.

I have no doubt so much to learn but either way because of Gods workings through Ray I have a great respect and love for our God and yet its only because of God I feel as I do.

I can honestly say with my whole heart God is good and I also believe I did not find this site by accident but I believe God arrange it by appointment at the appointed time. I know inwardly I need to not read but need to keep studying the lake of fire series as I still have many false beliefs in me from Christendom which are being dispelled from my understanding that God is giving me through this site B.T.

Im certain you as well as many other can relate to  what im going through and I know we are all at different levels of understanding me being at the bottom. Im not always sure if some questions I ask are appropriate to ask but then I say all is of God but not by God.

I do find your responses and others very helpful which Im am most thankful for. One thing I can say is that in the conclusion of all things is that everything is going to be awesome for everyone and not just some as Christendom has lead me to believe and I should say also that I always believe I was going to hell but I have the truth about that sort of thing and no one can take that from me.

[Kat]

Hi Rhys,

I would say that what you feel is certainly a "hope."
   
Lam 3:26. It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Well I think we should feel a certain degree of determination, not that we can determine our fate, but it's what the Spirit indwelling puts in you. Also the Spirit would keep you humble, as a prideful boosting attitude would not be something of the Spirit.

The Spirit leads you to strive and search out the truth, I think with a certain amount of struggle involved. The narrow way is not the easy way and many people hear the truth, but after a little adversity they fade away and turn back into the world. I think that is what the parable of the Sower and the seed.

Luke 8:5 "A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it.
V. 6  Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture.
V. 7  And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it.
V. 8  But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold." When He had said these things He cried, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

There are many more that hear the truth and believe it than who are actually chosen elect. I think we can have a sincere hope for ourself, but we can not know about someone else. So you sure want to feel that hope, if not absolute assurance, I would say that is a very good sign.

Mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Rhys 🕊]

Thanks Kat that helps a lot about the hope one has

Pro 23:18  Surely there is a future, and your hope will not be cut off.


2Co 3:12  Since we have such a hope, we are very bold,

As He leads we follow and we are secure in Him for whatever He has

Rhys

[thewatchman]

"Jesus loves me this I know,

Cause the Bible tells me so."   

Dear lord...who told him he could sing? /o\.....

[Rhys 🕊]

And he is out of tune 

[cjwood]

your post about jfk cracked me up watchman! 
had to laugh out loud.   

claudia

[Deborah-Leigh]

"Jesus loves me this I know,

Cause the Bible tells me so."   

Dear lord...who told him he could sing? /o\.....

You obviously have no appreciation of fine music.

You probably only like two kinds of music-----Country   &   Western.

ROFL 

[rick]

                                                                          Hi J.F.K.

Country, western, rock, I don't mind just don't play rap crap please.  LOL I think I get the meaning from your response but of course I knew that but it doesn't hurt to hear it and so I do thank you.


Love and peace to all.   

[thewatchman]

"Jesus loves me this I know,

Cause the Bible tells me so."   

Dear lord...who told him he could sing? /o\.....

You obviously have no appreciation of fine music.

You probably only like two kinds of music-----Country   &   Western.

Yet why do I have the image of 2 cats in a sack fighting? 

[The Professor]

Hi All.

As Ray has mentioned. God does know...

As for us we are a work in progress. One day you could be sure God is working in you...another day you could believe you just aren't ready yet.

It is our struggles and doubts that get us there.

A well adjusted person learns and improves through struggles and a true believer, BELIEVES when there is a possibility of doubt.

I work towards a goal and that's all I think about...not the reward.

i.e. Instead of focusing on whether you are God's elect work on being God's elect and that should take care of itself.

[Ian 155]

"work out YOUR salvation with Fear & Trembling"

"Have I not chosen 12 of you - yet one of you is a devil"

Now I know there awaits for me a crown ....

[se7en]

I agree with everyone here, just to add on...

As we've already went over, we don't know who is and who is not the elect, we have to "endure to the end" (this is part of that hope we are talking about). But, the elect know the truth and we are confident of knowing who God is and His son Jesus Christ who He has sent.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

If we say that we do not know truth, we are judging ourselves out of our own mouths, so as the elect, we hope and are confident that we KNOW Jesus Christ, the Truth... and we say that we do.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me  (we know Him!!! after the spirit)

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

The prize is Jesus Christ in us, the Truth, that hope of glory. We are always pressing into Him. He has revealed himself to us and we continually commune with Him (eat His words) knowing more and more of Christ while our old man dies daily. Paul thought to be careful or he would be a "castaway", he hoped to be saved but had not as yet attained.

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

The three things that we know as being God's elect is to be 1. Called, 2. Chosen, and 3. Faithful... to the end.

We need to be diligent and remember and not take for granted who we are or we become like this parable.....

Luk 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luk 12:17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
Luk 12:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
Luk 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, [and] be merry.
Luk 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
Luk 12:21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

laying up treasures for ourself is being self confident and not giving credit to God for ALL HIS WORK. It's His faith and His work in us. It's all of Him (I know all here believe this). It's the faith OF Christ and not of ourselves. I think that is one of the reasons Ray did such a huge study on the sovereignty of God and that we have no free will. I am so grateful God caused Ray to do that. EVERYTHING is of Him.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [faith] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Acknowledging this is all of God and not of ourselves, and Him having us to endure to the end, its only at the resurrection that we would have any absolute certainty that we are God's "very elect". But knowing Truth, we are not cocky or have a "self assured" attitued about things because we know that.... ALL IS OF GOD, and not of ourselves. But we are confident that what the Lord started in us, He will finish.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

We trust Him, rest in His ability to do it all. I love Rhy's attitude... God will work it out in all of us.

God's elect are not fearful or timid about confessing they know Him and His Word.

I have told my wife before when we discuss this stuff.... I'll say, "I know the Truth."  and she says to me, "You don't know all truth".  and my reply, "I don't know all truth and have all knowledge all at once at any given moment, but I know the Truth, I know Jesus Christ, His spirit". I know Him.

The elect know what He's about, know what He's doing in the earth (in me). As He is so are we. We are about our Father's business. We are the saviors of the world, right now, that's within us, and outwardly later. That's our calling, that is our lot. It's a hard road that seperates us from all of mankind, and they will hate us just for saying that "I know the truth". there is one way, one mindset, and that is the mind of Christ.

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house (spiritual house), neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

I just wanted to add that tidbit. Hope it helps!

[Ian 155]

Also 1 peter vs 1-3
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God's elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

[indianabob]

Dear friends and called out of God,

I don't know if this point has been previously covered, so if I'm repeating please forgive.

I have been given the reassurance that God is in control, so whether I'm one of the elect or not it does not matter.
God will guide me through the trials and what I become in the end will be what God has judged to be best for me. I will fit comfortably into the community that God is providing for us all.
I presently have full confidence that God loves me and knows what is best and I am content to wait and learn my position in God's everlasting Kingdom to come.

That confidence does not preclude personal speculation and human wonderment about how we each will be used of God and what type of life we will experience in the ages or the eternity to come.

....If God is for us, who then can be against us...Rom 8:31

[microlink]

Bob from Indiana,
Very well put and succinctly stated. Agree 100%