Did Jesus die for our sins?

[lareli]

Duet 24:16
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

How is it that God gave Jesus to be put to death for the sins of others when the law of Moses says this?

[lilitalienboi16]

Duet 24:16
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

How is it that God gave Jesus to be put to death for the sins of others when the law of Moses says this?

That hasn't changed:
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Heb 9:1  Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb 9:2  For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Heb 9:3  And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Heb 9:4  Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Heb 9:5  And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Heb 9:6  Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Heb 9:7  But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8  The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9  Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10  Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11  But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12  Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13  For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16  For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17  For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18  Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19  For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20  Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21  Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22  And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23  It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25  Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hope this helps!
Alex

[santgem]

Let us put it this way..

If there are no sins then there will be no Jesus to forgive for our sins because in the first place there are no sins to forgive.

we sin because we do wrong and evil, and  knowing evil is knowing good. We do not know good if we do not know evil so that two is contrast.

God wants us to become like Him to know evil and Good. "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: Gen 3:22"

Ecc. 1:13 says in the Concordant Version that God has given an "experience of EVIL to the sons of humanity to HUMBLE him."   In time we are all humbled and we will all repent, but we will repent for our sins and not other to repent for our own sins "every man shall be put to death for his own sin Duet 24:16".
.

Going back, God wants us to become like Him to know evil and good and only Jesus can redeem us from our sins. God already prepared Jesus before the foundation of the world and gave authority on earth to forgive sins.

And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made—the Book that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered.

Footnote:
* 13:8 Or not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.NLT

"But that ye may know that the Son of man hath authority on earth to forgive sins.....Mar 2:10  ASV

[lareli]

Thanks for the replies guys...

Can't say I totally understand though. Did He die for our sins? Yes. Does the law say that no one is to be put to death for someone else's sin? Yes.

I read your replies and I'll read them again and ask God to show me what I'm missing.

[onelovedread]

It may help, Largeli to re-read Ray's "TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD"
TRUTH NUMBER 6

[A] "...that in the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES every word may be established" (Matt. 18:16).

"...In the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES shall every word be established" (II Cor. 13:1).

[C] "And I will give power unto my TWO WITNESSES..." (Rev. 11:3).

This particular law of Scripture is constantly violated. We are to have at least a second witness to establish a Scriptural truth or doctrine.

[lareli]

Thanks john I haven't read that yet... I will now though.

[lilitalienboi16]

Thanks for the replies guys...

Can't say I totally understand though. Did He die for our sins? Yes. Does the law say that no one is to be put to death for someone else's sin? Yes.

I read your replies and I'll read them again and ask God to show me what I'm missing.

Hello Largli,

I think what John Chris says certainly bares taking note.

I wanted to add, and I may be playing semantics here but; Didn't Christ die for the FORGIVENESS of Sins and not for sin?

In other words, Did Christ die so mankind doesn't have to die for his sins or Did Christ die because mankind required forgiveness for his sin?

Every man still dies for his own sin, its the  wages of sin.

Forgiveness is the first step towards redemption. Then comes repentance and finally cleansing from God. Mankind needs to have a change of heart, the heart which causes man to sin must be replaced and forgiveness is the first step in this process. The old man must die. Sin makes us spiritually dead [I think ]. Only the Spirit of the Son can quicken the dead and bring us to life. This is a process.

This is just how I see this, anyone else can feel free to correct me or chime in.

God bless,
Alex

[lareli]

2 Kings 14:6

6 But the sons of the [a]slayers he did not put to death, according to what is written in the book of the Law of Moses, as the Lord commanded, saying, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor the sons be put to death for the fathers; but each shall be put to death for his own sin."

Alex what you pointed out about Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins, and also you pointed out that we all still die as that is the wages of our sin. That helps.

Leads into another question though, how is it that I can forgive someone without requiring a blood sacrifice but God required blood sacrifice? Not only can I forgive someone but I'm (as well as all of us) commanded to forgive by God..

[lilitalienboi16]

2 Kings 14:6

6 But the sons of the [a]slayers he did not put to death, according to what is written in the book of the Law of Moses, as the Lord commanded, saying, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor the sons be put to death for the fathers; but each shall be put to death for his own sin."

Alex what you pointed out about Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins, and also you pointed out that we all still die as that is the wages of our sin. That helps.

Leads into another question though, how is it that I can forgive someone without requiring a blood sacrifice but God required blood sacrifice? Not only can I forgive someone but I'm (as well as all of us) commanded to forgive by God..

Great questions Largeli, I don't believe I am adequately equipped to answer such a question. I can speculate and study on it as yourself.

I do believe this audio / transcript may be of great help to you. Please let me know if you find the answers to what you are seeking as you stirred in me curiosity. I do believe having read somewhere, the importance and reason behind "blood" but I can't remember now where that was. Perhaps it was here...

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html

God bless,

Alex

[Kat]

Leads into another question though, how is it that I can forgive someone without requiring a blood sacrifice but God required blood sacrifice? Not only can I forgive someone but I'm (as well as all of us) commanded to forgive by God..

Hi largeli, your question made me think of this Scripture.

Luke 6:37  "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Okay now that leads to another Scripture, the model pray Christ gave to us.

Mat 6:12  And forgive us our debts,
       As we forgive our debtors.

Luke 11:4  And forgive us our sins,
       For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us...

We are being made into His image, therefore in our own behavior/character we are to become like Him, to imitate Him. It would be hypocritical to expect so great a forgiveness from the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and yet not feel the need to do likewise to our fellowman. It's part of the process, it shows the mind of Christ, it separate the few and the many.

Mat 6:14  "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
v. 15  But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

To become like Him we have to learn how to be loving/forgiving even to our enemies, we cannot hold grudges or resentment. It's developing an attitude of mercy and even longsuffering, that's how the elect must be to rule with Christ.

Col 3:12  Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;
v. 13  bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.
v. 14  But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Abednego]

Not only can I forgive someone but I'm (as well as all of us) commanded to forgive by God..

Commanded for a reason:

Colossians 3:13  King James Version (KJV)
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Ephesians 4:32  King James Version (KJV)
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

[lareli]

Why did Christ have to die for us to be forgiven? Didn't He go around in the flesh telling people "your sins are forgiven"? If He was able to forgive sins before He died on the cross then why was it necessary for Him to be put to death for our sins? And why was there a LAW saying no one is to die for someone else's sins?

Christ dying for our sins doesn't make any sense to me right now. God could have forgiven us our sins without sacrificing His only begotten son..

[cjwood]

i could be wrong here largeli, but i am thinking that since Jesus came to fulfill the Law, and that Law included a "blood" sacrifice for those coming to obtain forgiveness of their sins, that Jesus HAD to be that blood sacrifice to fulfill the Law and cover the sins of all of mankind.  He was the Lamb of God.  He was that blood sacrifice.  He had to die, His blood had to be spilled.

claudia

[Kat]

Deu 24:16  "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.

Largeli, I think you make be referring to this verse... that was a caution to earthly judges, as in some of the nations the family of a criminal was commonly included in the punishment of the accused (compare Ester 9:13-14). Israel was set apart and was not to be like those other nations.

As Claudia was saying the OT sacrificial system of animal (without blemish or spot) that was used to make a blood sacrifice to the Lord God for the forgiveness of sin (or for worship or an offering)... all of the OT sacrificing, which required the shedding of blood, pointed forward to and are types of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Heb 9:6-10), ordained from the beginning.

Rev 13:8  ...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Everything is being carefully worked out in God's plan, all is connected and is working together to fulfill His plan.  God could have done these things any way He desired for it to be, but this is the way that His perfect wisdom knew would bring about His desired results.

Jesus was able to forgive sins while on earth (before His sacrifice) because He was God in the flesh. The sacrifice that Christ made giving His life for His own creation is an integral part of God's plan, for us - forgiveness, for Jesus Christ - to show just how great is His love for us, that He would lay down His very real physical life, suffer and die.

John 15:9  "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
John 15:13  Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.

Maybe this death that we all will go through is actually something that He 'needed' to go through as well, experience is the best teacher, even for Him.

Heb 4:15  For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 7:26  For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;
v. 27  who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
v. 28  For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

He died for us to show us He loves us.

I might liken it to a mother who cooks for you when you are hungry and demanding and angry that you have no food.

[Abednego]

I might liken it to a mother who cooks for you when you are hungry and demanding and angry that you have no food.

If that isn't humanity in a nutshell I don't know what is.  Good one.

[lareli]

Why did God require a blood sacrifice in the first place? If I can forgive my neighbor without requiring a blood sacrifice than why wouldn't God? God in the flesh, Jesus, was able to forgive sins without requiring blood sacrifice... He did it during His ministry before He was put to death on the cross. So what did Him dying on the cross accomplish? Reconciliation with God? Ok but wasn't that possible even without Jesus death?

If my neighbor offends me I can forgive him without him even being sorry, let alone a blood sacrifice.. ALL of us can and I'm sure ALL of us have.. God can too, And the LAW, HIS LAW says that NO ONE is to be put to death for anyone else's sin... So why are we taught that God put Jesus to death on the cross for EVERYONES sin? How was this an acceptable and pleasing sacrifice to God when Gods own law said this sort of thing would be unlawful?

Thanks for all the replies everyone..

[John from Kentucky]

Why did God require a blood sacrifice in the first place? If I can forgive my neighbor without requiring a blood sacrifice than why wouldn't God? God in the flesh, Jesus, was able to forgive sins without requiring blood sacrifice... He did it during His ministry before He was put to death on the cross. So what did Him dying on the cross accomplish? Reconciliation with God? Ok but wasn't that possible even without Jesus death?

If my neighbor offends me I can forgive him without him even being sorry, let alone a blood sacrifice.. ALL of us can and I'm sure ALL of us have.. God can too, And the LAW, HIS LAW says that NO ONE is to be put to death for anyone else's sin... So why are we taught that God put Jesus to death on the cross for EVERYONES sin? How was this an acceptable and pleasing sacrifice to God when Gods own law said this sort of thing would be unlawful?

Thanks for all the replies everyone..

God is in charge.  He does things His way, on His time schedule, without taking advice from things He created.

But indeed, O Man, who are you to reply against God?  Will the thing formed say to Him Who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Rom 9:20

Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? Rom 9:21

It requires thinking over God's Scriptures and His Spirit to come to understanding of God's ways.

Jesus said no greater love is there than to lay down ones life for others.  Because you have given all there is if your life is gone.

It is one thing for the Great God to create all things.  But it is something else for Him to give up His Godly powers, become a man, and suffer and die for all mankind.

It shows He really, really loves us.  To do that for beings He is creating in His own image, shows we are indeed His kin; that we have value to Him; that He will keep His promise to resurrect us from the dead.

[G. Driggs]

Old covenant laws were made for disobedient men, not God.

1Ti 1:8  But we know that the law is good if a man uses it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9  knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous one, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Old covenant laws required the blood sacrifice of animals for the forgiveness of sins, and Deu 24:16 does not contradict them and neither does the perfect blood sacrifice of Jesus.

Jesus didn't have to die, He volunteered because He loves us like other have already said. No one took His life, He gave it up. The Father commands love, and what greater love is there than to lay down ones life for another?

Joh 10:17  For this [reason] the Father loves Me, because I lay down My [own] life--to take it back again.
Joh 10:18  No one takes it away from Me. On the contrary, I lay it down voluntarily. [I put it from Myself.] I am authorized and have power to lay it down (to resign it) and I am authorized and have power to take it back again. These are the instructions (orders) which I have received [as My charge] from My Father. 

[zvezda]

Why did God require a blood sacrifice in the first place? If I can forgive my neighbor without requiring a blood sacrifice than why wouldn't God? God in the flesh, Jesus, was able to forgive sins without requiring blood sacrifice... He did it during His ministry before He was put to death on the cross. So what did Him dying on the cross accomplish? Reconciliation with God? Ok but wasn't that possible even without Jesus death?

If my neighbor offends me I can forgive him without him even being sorry, let alone a blood sacrifice.. ALL of us can and I'm sure ALL of us have.. God can too, And the LAW, HIS LAW says that NO ONE is to be put to death for anyone else's sin... So why are we taught that God put Jesus to death on the cross for EVERYONES sin? How was this an acceptable and pleasing sacrifice to God when Gods own law said this sort of thing would be unlawful?

Thanks for all the replies everyone..

Because He loves His creation and He wanted us to know He loves us.
He didn't have to die, but He chose to die for us.
You can forgive your neighbor by simply telling them they are forgiven, you don't have to go extra miles to do anything else, but if you do, that shows how much you mean it and care about them.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg27963.html#msg27963 ---

Phil. 2: 7-8 "But He made Himself of no reputation,  and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made [emptied Himself of His glory and privileges] in the likeness of men.  And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also has high exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name."

John 3:16  For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting (Eonian) life."

Why did God do that?  And why did Christ volunteer to go to the cross?  Well I've been told all my life that He died for my sins.  But did He have to?  Did He have to die for our sins?  Is there no way to pardon sins, out of His love and mercy?  Couldn't He say, 'okay you have sinned, but I pardon you.'  After all what is grace.

Eph 2:8  "For by grace you have been saved through faith."

Grace will save you, so why die?  Did Christ have to die?  Why did God want to die?  Why would God want to become a man?  When I say God I'm talking about Jehovah, Jesus Christ.  Did the Father 'make' His Son Jesus die?  Did He 'take' His Son's life?  NO!

John 10:17  For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it up again.
v. 18  No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father."

Jesus VOLUNTEERED HIS LIFE for us !!!  While we were yet sinners (Rom. 5:08).  What the law couldn't do and we couldn't do, CHRIST DID (Rom. 8:3).

We must experience sin before we can be saved from it!  How did Elohim come to a knowledge of "good and evil?"  We aren't told.

Why did God want to become a man and die?  Well there are a number of reasons.  Jesus Christ is the First fruit, He is the Word, He is the Creator of all and so on.  He made this human race and He gave them (all with the direction of the Father - Elohim) an experience of evil, which is not a nice thing.  God did not say there is nothing wrong with evil, just sit back and enjoy it, He doesn't talk like that.

Eze 33:11  "Say to them:  As I live, says the Lord Jehovah,  I have no delight in the death of the wicked,"

God made us, He put us through it, but we will never in all eternity, be able to have a one-upmanship over God, by saying you don't know what it's like.  It's already decided.  First of all, God gave up His Son, and for any of you that are parents, it is harder to give up a son than it is to give up yourself.

Now Christ is the actual Creator, He reduced Himself down to the very humans He made, to be just like them.  Except He had the Spirit of God.  So He came down to show us how to live as a human being, under all the duress, stress, and mess and He did it humbly and perfectly.

So He set us an example and He could have stopped there.  He could say I went through hunger, they tried to throw me off cliffs, they slapped Me, they mocked Me. They put spears in My side and He could have zapped them in a second.  He let them do that for 33 years and never fought back, and never had a evil thought against them.

He showed you how to live and He could have quit.  But after He did all that, He said now I'm going to die for you, because I love you. Think about it, He didn't have to die, nobody took His life. He said I lay down My life and "no one takes it from Me," (John 10:18). He died to prove to us that He loves us. He didn't have to, He just did it. So we would know that He loves us. We can't say, but our Creator had it made in the shade, no.  He came down and was under the same temptations, under the same rules and regulations and then He went to the cross and died, voluntarily.  He says in effect, if that doesn't show that I love you, I don't know what else I can do.

So that's what He did and that's why He died, because He loved us and He wanted to prove it.  So He died for our sins.  God accepted that for a sacrifice, but it was a voluntary sacrifice.  It wouldn't have needed to be done, they did it that way, but it didn't need to be done that way.

They (Israelites) were forgiven for a whole year, just by the sprinkling of a goat's blood, in the Holy place on the Day of Pentecost. But Christ wanted to prove to the human race that He was every bit as good of a man, as any other man was.  He doesn't sit in His ivory tower telling us how great He is. He did it as a man. God became a man and died, because He loves His creation and He wanted us to know He loves us.