> General Discussions
Destruction of the flesh
loretta:
Clearly, Ananias and Sapphira being struck dead was not the case of destruction of the flesh. Acts 5:1-11. Peter said that they lied to the Holy Spirit. v 3. KJV
All sins are against the holy spirit of God. Ps.51:4. Obviously there were others who also sinned, so why this special act against Ananias and Sapphira. What was God trying to teach them that caused great fear to come upon the church? v 11. Was the early church also in the wilderness at the time? Ironically, the wilderness church of Christendom today that uses this very example to teach about eternal hell suffers no such fear.
As Ray said, all scripture are spirit and life. So what is the spiritual lesson for us here? We, who don't fear hell, but nevertheless understand gehenna, as being a purifying fire. We, who daily battle the flesh, but continue to sin nonetheless. We who, by His grace, and understanding of the great spiritual truths, don't have a great fear of being struck dead in our tracks.
EDIT 25/1/14
I wasn't teaching anything here. This is what I think and I want to know what spiritual lesson this has for us here at BT.
microlink:
Just a few more thoughts on the soul.
I appreciate all the recent posts that have been put on this thread regarding what Ray has written regarding this subject
I also read an older thread on this subject that I never read before.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,769.0.html
It did not enlighten much.
Well I agree with what Ray wrote about the soul in some ways but not all. Of course the soul is not immortal. But there is more to it IMO.
These are a few of the comments I have difficulty with (Ray's comments in green):
Ray said:
Man is made of TWO components -- body and spirit.
Yes that was so in the creation of the first man, Adam.
(KJV) Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
But after that person called Adam came into existence. He was body, soul and spirit. After that all who were born, were born with body, soul, and spirit. You, at conception had with body soul and spirit and were born with those three attributes.
The scripture below tells me that there are three.
(KJV) 1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Three are mentioned not two. Nothing to do with the trinity since that is an entirely different subject. Three does not automatically imply trinity. In the physical universe there are the earth, moon and stars (planets in there as well). Three things mentioned. There are other examples. Is this out of context"? Does anything which has three components imply a trinity? I do not think so.
Ray said:
The spirit has NO CONSCIOUSNESS, not even in life. When a doctor puts someone under to operate, the person is NOT DEAD he still has his spirit, but he has NO CONSCIOUSNESS. We need a brain to have soul and consciousness. When someone shoots you through the brain, you LOSE YOUR SOUL.
LOSE means appoulmi as Ray has clearly explained.
Scripture says:
Mat. 10:28 "And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna
This scripture tells us that when someone kills (shoots) you do NOT lose your soul BECAUSE only God is able to destroy (appolumi) it.
When someone goes "under" on the operating table they lose consciousness but they retain their soul. And what about someone who is knocked unconscious? Do they yet have a soul? And sure, as Ray has correctly said, the spirit has NO CONSCIOUSNESS. And it is the soul that provides consciousness.
"The consciousness is not in the body, and it is not in the spirit. The consciousness of man is in his soul.." LRay Smith
(quoted from a post in this thread by Arc)
And so why a resurrection of the dead? Resurrection of what? The dead! Who are the dead? The dead shall be raised incorruptible scripture tells us.
I once was and taught believed that when someone dies, the spirit returns to God and in that spirit is a retention of all our life experiences. I was taught that our character is recorded there. It was explained like a cassette recording of our character. Today one would say it is on a spiritual CD or DVD. I no longer believe that. So why a resurrection from the dead? And is Gods spirit so compartmentalized that He has a big spiritual library of each and every spirit of man? After all there is one Spirit and God is Spirit. His spirit is life and imparts life. Or is there something on this earth after we die that requires a resurrection? Is there a record "somewhere" of our character. It is our character , our stubble and straw in our character that needs chastisement, either now or in the resurrection to judgment. The dead shall be raised incorruptible.
At the first resurrection those of us who are alive shall be changed instantly from physical body, soul and spirit into a spiritual body and made immortal. And those who are dead in hades (the imperceptible) will also be raised to immortality as spiritual bodies. The dead rise first and those of us who are alive at the 7th trumpet, them first and then us in the twinkling of an eye. Then we become a spiritual body, not a physical body and not a soul which required the physical body to live.
All that are in the grave shall hear His voice. How can they hear unless there is something that God wakes up (through His Spirit) for them to hear. He has a voice that will be heard. That is real.
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, ... And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (judgment).
What is the purpose of being raised from the dead? Could God raise His children to spiritual bodies another way? Could He make His children spirit beings without a resurrection from the dead? Probably. But He has chosen by His grand purpose for the dead to be raised (revived) from the imperceptible
We often look at Gen 2:7 as one of the scriptures about the soul (H5315 - nephesh).
Gen 2:7 end of verse ... and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living (H2416 - chay) soul (H5315 - nephesh - breathing creature).
Look at the way this same word H5315 is used in Lev. 19:28, 21:1, 22:4 and in Num 5:2, 6:11 and 9: 6,7, 10. Can Nephesh only be a living soul? Or can it be dead soul?
Selecting one of these scriptures as an example :
Num 9:6 And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body (H5315 - nephesh) of a man, that they could not keep the Passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day:
The other scriptures referred to in Lev. and Num. refer to nephesh as dead or dead body. Therefore a soul (nephesh) can be either alive or dead.
And then there is the very interesting word in Hebrew H7496. It is translated by a number of scholars into different English words. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance is useful but far from being accurate on many words. Like Ray has said:
From Ray: DR. STRONG'S USE OF CONTRADICTIONS AND SQUARE CIRCLES
I personally use Dr. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. It is a most helpful book. However, when it comes to the major "damnable heresies" of Christendom, Dr. Strong plays the same game of contradictions and square circles, as do the pastors and theologians.
We can find that according to Strong's the word H7496 means: "From H7495 in the sense of H7503; properly lax, that is, (figuratively) a ghost (as dead; in plural only):—dead, deceased”.
Also from —Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon) 1) ghosts of the dead, shades, spirits
It is clear that there is no consensus on this word by scholars. Translations like ghosts, shades, spirits, ghosts of the dead are worthless IMO. But it is helpful to see how this word H7496 is used in scripture and how it may explain for us more about this thing called a soul.
Here are the scriptures in which it is used. Job 26:5 Ps. 88:10 Prov. 2:18 Prov. 9:18 Prov. 21:16 Isa. 14:9 Isa. 26:19
Lets look at two: Ps 88:10 and Isa 26:19
(KJV) - Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead (H4191- mooth - most often used for the dead)? shall the dead (H7496 rephaim) arise and praise thee? Sela
Young's - Psa 88: 10 To the dead (H4191) dost Thou do wonders? Do Rephaim (H7496) rise? do they thank Thee? Selah.
And in Isaiah:
(KJV) Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead (H7496).
(Rotherham's Emphasised) Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead, shall come to life again, My dead body, they shall arise,—Awake and shout for joy, ye that dwell in the dust For, a dew of light, is thy dew, And, earth, to the shades (H7496) shall give birth.
Seems like H7496 has a meaning connected with those who are dead and in hades (imperceptible). Some may argue that all this is allegorical or metaphorical. So be it.
And these New Testament scriptures collaborate those in the Old Testament.
I Pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (KJV)
Act_26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? (KJV)
Act 26:8 Why is it being judged unbelievable by you, if God is rousing the dead? (CLV)
1 Co_6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. (KJV)
1 Cor 6:14 Now God rouses the Lord also, and will be rousing us up through His power." (CLV)
2Co_4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. (KJV)
2 Cor 4:14 being aware that He Who rouses the Lord Jesus will be rousing us also, through Jesus, and will be presenting us together with you." (CLV)
Eph_5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. (KJV)
Eph_5:14 Wherefore He is saying, 'Rouse! O drowsy one, and rise from among the dead, and Christ shall dawn upon you!'"(CLV)
Dave in Tenn:
To be fair, scripture does NOT say that man consists of three 'components', does it.
Genesis tells us what a human is. I can't come up with a "parable" of my own to describe the deep interconnected-ness of body, spirit and the resultant soul. But I can refer to what Jesus said about the Father, Himself, and us. The Father is in Him, He is in the Father and we are in Him. Scripture is full of statements that the Father does/did/, the Son does/did/said, and we do/did/say/said. Yet would I say that these are three "components" that can act independently of each other? I used to think that, but no longer.
Is it any stretch for me then to say that the Spirit does/did/said, the soul does/did/said, or the body does/did/said this that or the other? Not for me, and apparently not for Scripture.
If we're listing 'components', don't forget the Spirit of God, the Mind of Christ, and the mind and heart of man. If any of those do/speak/act independently, then all is confusion.
microlink:
Psalms 119:160 The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian." (CLV)
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (KJV)
se7en:
Beautiful thread guys, love this discussion.
microlink, did we answer "the day of the Lord" question you had yet? I don't think anyone came right out and said what it is. I think we got to talking about the "what man is made of" aspect of the question. Going to give my tidbit for what the "day of the Lord" is...
We can't forget....
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
We all know this, but it's important to be reminded of these words because "the day of the Lord" is judgement day. It's the age/time in evey person's life that Christ comes to reveal Himself.
John was on the island of Patmos when he had the visions for revelation, what did he say?....
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and,“What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”
The spirit is Christ, the truth. His words are spirit and life. When He arrives to each of us revealing himself to us, it is "The day of the Lord". Judgement day... grace and truth being revealed to us.
So John was in the Word (in the Spirit) on the Lord's Day (the day/age/time of judgment)....
And What did the Word show John? The whole book of revelation.... judgement.... grace... truth. It's all the same :)
We will all go through "The day of the Lord" at our appointed time.
You will hear and see tons of churchy commentary about "the lords day" being that day of rest one time of week mumbo jumbo... but now that Christ has revealed Himself to me, I'm constantly at rest. NOW is judgment on the house of God.
The world wants to avoid judgment at all costs, but avoiding judgment is neither possible or something to be desired.
I love it :)
I hope that helped!
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