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Author Topic: Morning star?  (Read 2152 times)

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nightmare sasuke

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Morning star?
« on: March 22, 2006, 05:55:24 PM »

Why does the septuagint use a Greek word meaning "morning star" as an equivolent for the Hebrew word "eill" meaning "howl" in Isa 14:12, but not in zecharia 11:2?
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Mickyd

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Morning star?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2006, 11:54:25 PM »

That's a good question isn't it? :)
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Sonia

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Morning star?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2006, 07:31:03 AM »

That would have been a good question to discuss with the Jewish fellow that was on here awhile back.

I wondered this myself, as I checked Jewish translations and found they do the same. I emailed the question to a Jewish message board, and got the following:

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This was an interesting read. The letters "yll" (to me the 'y' is closer to the hebrew 'yud' than 'i' and I am not familiar at all with the methods of the Concordances and dictionaries mentioned in the article, so I would render "eill" as "hyll") in Hebrew indeed mean wail and it is fascinating that the same spelling as the word in question in Isaiah, appears in Ezek. 21:17 (verse 17 in my Torah, not 12 as mentioned below), Zech. 11:2 and practically identically in Jer. 47:2 and Joel 1:5; in all these 4 cases it indeed means crying, wailing and the sorts. In Isaiah 14:12 however the word means 'bright star' and can be translated 'Lucifer' with the alternate meaning of the word being Venus but not Satan. This follows the translation of Jonathan son of Uzziel from 32 BCE (yes, over 2000 years ago!) and is accepted by all Torah commentaries. The word is related to the verb shine, "hll" (perhaps "ell" with the methods of your article? pure guess) as in Job 29:1 and Is. 13:10 according to Torah linguists from ca. 1000 years ago. In 'Piel' this word "hll" can mean praise, and is the basis for the commonly known hallelu'a, praise the L-rd. A thought came to my mind now that the Greek word 'halos' might be related to it. The verse should be translated as follows: "How have you fallen from heaven, Lucifer (Venus), the morning star, you have been cut down to earth, conqueror of nations". The meaning is that the king of Babylon is compared to Venus, so that 'you who shines like Venus amongst stars' is implied. I cannot agree with the answer's statement "There is no valid reason why Isaiah 14:12 should not be rendered, ‘Howl!'...", because the verse at that point wants to express the elevated state of the morning star/king to accentuate the gravity of the fall, parallel to the second part of the verse, ie. "conqueror of nations". Translating it as 'howl' would defeat that meaning. As an aside, the words 'son of the morning" are a literal translation of the Hebrew, but in Hebrew 'son of' is commonly used to describe someone who is closely associated with the object of 'son of'. For example, the Torah literally uses the words 'son of x years' to refer to someone's age or 'son of death' to describe someone who was sentenced to death. So 'morning star' is a more correct translation of the words 'son of the morning'.
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My follow up question:
Thank you for your reply. Would you say that "howl" is valid as a possible translation in this case? or are they completely wrong? Also, I don't know anything about Hebrew--can you explain to me how the same word can be translated so differently? Is it like English words that have the same sound but different meanings?

Thanks,
Sonia Johnson
=========================

Answer -
In view of the fact that it was translated by Jonathan ben Uzziel and accepted by all Torah scholars to mean shine, I don't see the possibility of it to mean 'howl'. Besides, some apparent meaning of the verse would be lost, as I have explained.

The words wail/howl and shine/bright star are different in Hebrew. It is their conjugated form that happens to be identical. Verbs in Hebrew are based on 'roots' constructed from 3 consonants. Normally all 3 consonants are present in all conjugated forms of the verb. Vowels play a secondary role in Hebrew. The root for howl is 'yll' and for shine it is 'hll'. When dealing with the word spelled "hyll" it has an 'h' as a prefix for its conjugated form when the meaning is wail ("yll"), but it has an embedded 'y' in the conjugated form for shine ("hll"). Both verbs result in "hyll" with these two respective conjugations. Additionally surprising is the fact that the vowelization is identical for both verbs (which results in the word "HAYLAIL"), again, each in their own conjugation.

Addendum:     I need to make one small correction. The word "hyll" in Isaiah 14:12 is more likely a noun meaning bright star or Venus, rather than a verb. The rest of the explanation still stands, including that the noun in Isaiah is based on the verb shine "hll" and has the "y" inserted.
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Hope that helps,
Sonia
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nightmare sasuke

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Morning star?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2006, 01:22:06 PM »

What message board was this on?
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jerry cabral

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Which Morning Star
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2006, 03:54:37 PM »

Just one question on the Morning Star.  One its said is Lucifer Isiasa14 in which I dont believe, And the other Jesus The Son our Lord in Revaltions, in which I do believe.  So are some saying that there are two Morning Stars.
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eutychus

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Morning star?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2006, 04:02:30 PM »

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
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Sonia

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Morning star?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2006, 04:10:40 PM »

Quote from: nightmare sasuke
What message board was this on?


Sorry--I can't remember at all. It was 4-5 months ago, and I searched for a board, specifically to ask that one question.

Sonia
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