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Author Topic: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches  (Read 6678 times)

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Rene

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Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2014, 10:40:45 AM »


Im just trying to gain a better understanding of why there is such a fear of "church people"... Theyre not the boogie man and theyre not ghouls or monsters... theyre just lost sheep as we all once were. And for someone to be rescued from the cesspool of church only to thumb your nose at the others who are still drowning in the cesspool seems hypocritical to me. Why not, instead... Go fishing in the cesspool? Isn't that where Jesus went fishing? Isn't that where the apostles likewise went fishing?



Not fearful, just not interested in WORSHIPPING with them.  Since having my eyes opened to these truths, I do not want to sit in a church every week listening to a preacher who does not know, believe, or understand these truths. I do not believe it is "spiritually" beneficial for me to do so.

2Cor. 6:14 - "Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?"

René

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lareli

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Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2014, 05:32:02 PM »


Hi largeli,

Well maybe I didn't express that as well as I could have. We do not need to avoid Christians, I have family members that are active in their church and are very dear to me, I would never avoid them or any Christian for that matter. What I meant is avoid involvement with their religion, I have no desire to join them in their cesspool.

Quote
Im just trying to gain a better understanding of why there is such a fear of "church people"... Theyre not the boogie man and theyre not ghouls or monsters... theyre just lost sheep as we all once were. And for someone to be rescued from the cesspool of church only to thumb your nose at the others who are still drowning in the cesspool seems hypocritical to me. Why not, instead... Go fishing in the cesspool? Isn't that where Jesus went fishing? Isn't that where the apostles likewise went fishing?

If I thought for one minute 'I' could open their eyes to this truth of course I would talk about it to them all the time, but I know it's God that must draw them to Christ.

John 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

I have mentioned a bit of this truth to family members and they know I would gladly answer any questions they had, they are not interested and I'm not going to force it on them.

How long do you think any of us would last trying to proselyte among a church's congregation?

Mat 7:6  Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Those are Christ's words to warn us against foolishly witnessing. It's not like God is in a race to try to save as many as He can in this life, the elect are chosen even before they are born, they are destined to be of the elect and nothing can prevent or change that.

Eph 1:4  according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

The thing is for most of their lives an elect has no idea they are His chosen, they go into the church along with the rest of the called. Even when they have their eyes finally opened to learn these truths, God does not make it obvious they are His elect even then. I believe it is to keep you humble, it would be too hard for a carnal person to not be haughty about it.

Now the Apostles were sent out to find/make disciples, but consider they were taught directly by Christ and they were starting the church. It's not like we need to make people aware that Christ has risen and people need to repent. The Apostles has a special mission given to them, it does not mean we all are to do the very same thing.

Christ tells us it is, the few, that are to strive to enter the narrow/strait gate, not to try to drag as many through with us as we can.

Luke 13:24  Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Kat thanks for your patience and understanding.

I have never heard anyone say that making disciples was only for the Apostles who were taught directly by Christ. Im not disagreeing with you and Im actually hoping youre right but if thats true then it raises more questions such as...

If making disciples, feeding the sheep, preaching the good news, etc. was only for the apostles, then what is it that the elect are supposed to be doing? Surely the elect arent just supposed to hang out and lay low until Christ returns are they? If so then what did Christ mean when He said "why do you call me Lord and not DO what I say?" and "My mother and brothers are those who DO the will of God" or "Its not those who hear my words but those who DO them"? Im paraphrasing of course, but what exactly is the DO that the elect are supposed to be doing?

Also why did Christ say after commisioning them to go out and preach "you will not finish going through all of Israel before the Son of Man comes"? Doesnt that mean that the commisioning to make disciples/preach the gospel would apply to all generations until His return?

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Kat

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Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2014, 02:50:51 AM »


Hi Largeli,

Quote
If making disciples, feeding the sheep, preaching the good news, etc. was only for the apostles, then what is it that the elect are supposed to be doing? Surely the elect arent just supposed to hang out and lay low until Christ returns are they? If so then what did Christ mean when He said "why do you call me Lord and not DO what I say?" and "My mother and brothers are those who DO the will of God" or "Its not those who hear my words but those who DO them"? Im paraphrasing of course, but what exactly is the DO that the elect are supposed to be doing?

I did not say that 'only' the Apostles would evangelize, Ray is a good example of somebody who was doing that. But I don't think that it's what every believer needs to do, I think it is a gift given to some, not all.

So what are the rest of believers to be 'doing?' Well Paul said "I die daily." What doesn't that mean and how does it apply to the rest of believers?

Rom 8:13  For if you live according to the flesh you will die (just die physically without receiving spiritual life of the Holy Spirit); but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live (spiritually).

Col 3:5  Put to death therefore what is earthly (fleshly) in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. (RSV)

Rom 6:3  Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
v. 4  Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
v. 5  For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
v. 6  knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
v. 7  For he who has died has been freed from sin.
v. 8  Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
v. 9  knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
v. 10  For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
v. 11  Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Quote
Also why did Christ say after commisioning them to go out and preach "you will not finish going through all of Israel before the Son of Man comes"? Doesnt that mean that the commisioning to make disciples/preach the gospel would apply to all generations until His return?

Mat 10:23  When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Well Jesus was giving His disciples a commission/instruction to continue spreading/preaching the gospel, but He said they would not made it through all the cities of Israel until "the Son of Man comes." Did that mean His coming in glory at the end of the age or was He talking about what He was yet to do, as the "Son of Man" had come to do right then in their life times - before they gone through the cities of Israel?

Mat 20:28  just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

I think that could have been what Jesus was saying there, that they would not finish going to all the cities before His crucifixion had come and the "Son of Man," was scarified as a ransom for us all.

1Tim 2:5  For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
v. 6  who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

p.s. also remember that the things that Jesus said were mostly put in a way to conceal the true meaning, He did not come right out and say things so everybody could understand. 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 11:24:26 AM by Kat »
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loretta

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Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2014, 03:20:56 PM »

That was very well put Kat.

Oh yes, I was one happy evangelist when I came out of the Roman church, I could barely be reined in.  What with my preaching/teaching/emails/social media posts/distributing pamphlets, books and bibles, I did it with an arrogance that far superceded that of the Pharisees!  I shudder to think of those days...and what I was teaching.

I am not saying that Ray and others do not have to die daily as well.  But when I truly started to experience this daily dying to self in the lof, believe me, I did not have breathe enough to evangelize.  Most of the time I'm struggling to get out of the lof, leave alone dying, so I'm floundering and flaying, hardly a witness for the good news. :)  But I know that it will be good in the end, perhaps there will be opportunity to evangelize, perhaps I am already evangelizing to people sans a word.  All is of God.  He is sovereign.
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Arion

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Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2014, 10:40:58 AM »

I did not say that 'only' the Apostles would evangelize, Ray is a good example of somebody who was doing that. But I don't think that it's what every believer needs to do, I think it is a gift given to some, not all.

As we know scripture interprets scripture.  There is a very important key when it comes to witnessing that hardly any in Christendom stop to consider.

1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

This is from the "I'd rather see a sermon than hear a sermon" rule of thumb.  The multitudes that followed after Christ wanted to hear what he had to say.  And likewise those that followed the apostles wanted to hear what they had to say.  There is little more irritating to have someone come up to you because they feel forced to 'witness' and they aren't even sure themselves what they believe if you corner them, but they sure are going to go around and make a royal pain of themselves whether you want to hear them or not.

As a sidenote I also take it to heart when I read;

Jas 3:1  Not, many teachers, become ye, my brethren, knowing that, a severer sentence, shall ye receive; [rotherham]

There are precious few teachers today which are called of God imo and Ray was one of those men.  I know he took that very seriously and that is one of the reasons why he took so much time and effort with the papers that he wrote.  He knew he would have to account for it one day.  I shudder when I see people going around teaching the heresy they are teaching.  These poor pastors that stand up in the pulpit although sincere, are going to have much to account for in the day of reckoning. 

Because of all this and that I am not a teacher I'm very careful in the things that I 'witness' to others.  I would love opportunities to explain to other Christians why I don't believe in their hell as they are taught along with the other great pearls of wisdom we've learned here.  But it has to be because God himself engenders it and leads the way.  He is fully capable of bringing who He wishes to a knowledge of His truth in His timing.  He brought us all to understand these truths in a unique way through Ray's teachings and through the teachings of few others who are like him. 

I wish their were more teachers who taught God's word in truth and power.  But, if the very elect themselves are few in number in this age the few real teachers are as scarce as hens teeth as I think we can all attest to. 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 10:44:38 AM by Arion »
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loretta

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Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2014, 06:57:27 AM »

Very well put indeed, Arion.

1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

What then does it mean to sanctify the Lord God in your hearts?  Clearly it means more than inviting Jesus into our hearts, as taught by Christendom.

And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them. Num 20:12

For ye rebelled against my commandment in the desert of Zin, in the strife of the congregation, to sanctify me at the water before their eyes: that is the water of Meribah in Kadesh in the wilderness of Zin.  Num 27:14

But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.  Isa 5:16

But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.  Isa 29:23


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Joel

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Re: Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2014, 02:23:18 PM »

Ray's "Winning souls for Jesus" is the best teaching I know of concerning the subject.
He quotes the scriptures and explains Matthew 5 were Jesus speaks about the salt of the earth, and the light of the world.
Very short and to the point in my opinion.
There has always been true Light, and false light since the beginning, people in the church world are satisfied with the false light until God shines the real light on them and opens up their eyes.
The Apostle Paul was a very good example of that.

Joel
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