Suspicions about the very great evil in Churches

[thewatchman]

I'd like to add one thought as a bit of balance here.

"A deceived person never knows he is deceived."

Did we know when we were at church? Most likely not. It took the Rhema revelation from God who picked us out of the throng for no other reason other than his will to do so for us to know any better. We were no more special than anyone else and remain so. To our Father goes all the glory. I am grateful he chose me to know, but I cannot take any glory in it. He chose me, I didn't do a thing other than obey. 

[Dave in Tenn]

Me either, watchman.  I wasn't even 'looking', just minding my own sick business.

Does having the 'right doctrine' matter?  Ask somebody who has lived a life terrified of the thought that they or their loved ones might spend eternity burning, and who cowed to every religious demand to keep that from happening.  Ask somebody who used to DELIGHT in the thought of Hell and the punishment god would wreak on their enemies.  Me?  I was never really the latter (at least not for more than a fleeting moment), but that was only by the grace of God.  I had other problems stemming from carnal religion.  Genuinely believing the 'right doctrine' changes lives, and for the better.

As for the rest of it?  I reckon you actually have to believe it to know what it does to your heart.  I am ready to testify that all I want to do is believe it MORE (and more consistently), not less and not other.  So I take some issue with the thought that simply having the 'right doctrine' doesn't make one 'righteous'.  Maybe not.  I am sure there are those who put a check in the "universalist" box and never grow up.  But what a necessary way to start! 

I don't doubt that there are plenty of fine, moral, selfless, loving, god-worshipping people in the churches.  But I can't be convinced that these such people "really" believe (or have given any serious thought to) the 'doctrines' they are hearing.  If they really DID, then they BY DEFINITION couldn't be fine, moral, selfless, loving God-worshippers.  And if they DON'T "really" believe, then why do they keep company with and support those who do?  I reckon each has their own answer and WILL answer in time.  I've certainly had to...and continue to.     

[rick]

J.F.K., you nailed it right on the head. Your understanding is incredible, why should we care about what Satan is doing in his domain ? The subject seems to be more about Satan than God .

I had to rethink this thread and asked myself one question. Who cares about what is taking place in any church outside of the church of Christ because we know its everything but Godly.

Moises , seriously, what's all this fuss about what the devil is doing, the bible says He's like a roaring lion seeking who he may devourer. 

And this thread could devourer us if we keep on with it. Moises, you need to repent for doing this thread.

No offence Moises but I come here to learn about God not the devil. The devil is not worth talking about and you know that too, so let it go.

[loretta]

And in reference to what you said about Tyndale, what matters to God? Does He care more about how "right" we are in what doctrine we believe, or does He care more about whether or not we DO what He says? Knowing the "deeper truths" wont save anyone. You can know all the mysteries of God and still be just a noisy gong if you dont have love for your neighbor. Theres a lot of people who attend "church" who are

Yes, believing the right doctrine does matter.  I was 'humble in spirit and loved God and my neighbor as was commanded' till I learnt the right doctrine.  Then my spiritual house came tumbling down!

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

And so, dear reader, if you have built your spiritual house upon the sand of this world's great Church, you are warned to COME OUT OF HER, because she is going to fall, and "GREAT will be the fall of it."

This then, is the condition of ALL the saints at some time in their life, as they along with John, "...stood upon THE SAND OF THE SEA, and saw a wild beast rise up out of the sea..."

Now Jesus does not leave us in the dark as to just what the sand represents in this set of parables. Jesus says,

"And everyone who hears these SAYINGS OF MINE, and does them NOT, shall be likened unto a foolish man which built his house upon the sand..." (Matt. 7:26).

What is missing in this house that we built upon the sand? Why it is a solid foundation, of course.

JESUS CHRIST—THE ONLY LASTING AND SURE FOUNDATION

What does Jesus say?

Join the small few in the Church of the Living God in the Spiritual Wilderness.  Where God will protect you for a time, times, and half a time.

JfK, I thought that the churches of Christendom are in the spiritual wilderness  going around the mountain for 40 years instead of crossing over into the promised land.  I think I am wrong though, but I can't find the scripture you reference.

[Dave in Tenn]

Rick, Jesus said, "Don't do as the Pharisees do."  Why would He say that, if the Pharisees DIDN'T?  Look...the END is good for everybody...including the worst preacher imaginable.  The LOF is made for the devil and his messengers.  They're going to be OK, when the time comes....just as we are being made "OK" now, assuming we are in that 'now'.  If any of us think we ourselves are better in and of ourselves, then we're missing the whole point.  But if there is no 'better way', no contrast, then what is the point of growing in grace and knowledge?

Ray had plenty to say about Satan and his work and purpose.  Remember, he is not the horned, red devil of myth but transforms himself into an angel of light.  He is absolutely necessary for the plan and purpose of God, and SO ARE HIS MESSENGERS!  There is an order to these things...an order He has ordained from the beginning.  It's 'work' to separate, especially for newer believers.  But it's worth it.   

[rick]

Dave, I would say to anyone here, I am least of all of you, it is my hope I have not given any other impression outside of what I have mentioned. I understand Satan has his role as we all do.

I'm not so much angry at this thread as I am perplexes by it. Why in Gods creation would any of us care about what Satan is doing in any church?

Yes I agree Ray has spoken about Satan but for our understanding but there is a huge difference between that which Ray says about Satan and what I understand this thread to be about.

Why should we give Satan any glory whatsoever ? We know from Rays papers about the synagogue of Satan but Ray was not interested in how much evil Satan is up to but rather what his purpose is and how we benefit from it.

Its not my intention to cause dissension but why not talk about what our heavenly Father is doing rather than what Satan is doing. That's all I'm saying.

Peace and love to all. 

[cjwood]

Moises, you need to repent for doing this thread.



rick, what you said to moises noted above in bold, is not cool.  if the moderators felt moises needed to repent for starting this thread, they would have never let him start it, or at the very least, have already locked it down.  but for one of us to tell another of us we need to repent, for all the world to read, is just not right.

just saying.

claudia

[acomplishedartis]

The church is rampant with these effects, via doing good works, constantly busy with meetings, and teachings (that leave out bits of truth) and MORE good works. It is through all of that, that we are tricked into believing that we are righteous and doing good.  We say "I'm so glad that I do all these things God and I'm not like this publican over here." 

God is the greatest magician of all time and His master delusion blinds us all to the Truth for a time, worked by the churches where the throne of Satan sits... inside all of us, until self is de-throned by the brightness of His coming

Se7en
Thanks for your input! it helps to expand the subject. I am glad I made this thread and I don't repent of it.

[acomplishedartis]

One of my points when starting this thread is that there are rituals being performed in the Church which are of Satan, or better said; rituals that Satan use to keep us away of spiritual matters of truth. Now I am going to prove farther this point for clarification. Think about this, if certain rituals are constantly performed in a Masonic church, this rituals are called masonic rituals. If certain rituals are constantly performed in the synagogue of Satan, then, how can you name this rituals?

Talking about rituals I will quote Ray saying:

You do all these things and you will be a holy person, it will just make your heart so wonderful? But what it does is it makes hypocrites and heretics out of people...

If you don't see that, you are just spinning your wheels in physical rituals. You don't get any more obnoxious than holier than thou, seventh day Sabbath keepers and holy sacred name societies. Maybe it's a secret handshake, it's like you belong to the Masons and you get a secret handshake and your in, you see. It's total nonsense.


Usually we get scared about what we don't understand. Satan is just a spirit that is God's lackeys, as we can see it in the book of job, and if we have the spirit that comes from God we have nothing to be afraid about. If we presently find ourselves in a spiritual war fare; I don't think that having in mind this information is useless.

If somebody thinks I being irrationally harsh with the Church institution, just point out one of the points of my list (which are placed on the begining of this thread) and prove it wrong, is that simple, there is no need for hard feelings. On the other hand, I understand how it's hard sometimes to separate what we know to be truth about the Church from our merciful feelings toward those that have been deceived by the Church. But when I started this thread I did said: ''Most of the things on the list are performed by the church leaders, they are the ones more accountable.'' and I stand on it.

And if somebody thinks I am harsh with church leaders, here is what Ray said about them on ("Hell is a Christian Hoax"),

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Jesus calls these leaders of the Church, "angels of the Devil," "the children of their father the Devil." The Apostle Paul calls them "Satan's ministers."

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; whose end shall be according to their works" (II Cor. 11:15).

Let's take off the blinders and see who these "angels of the Devil" really are:

You are now looking at cartoon/caricatures of the
"angels of the Devil." There are millions of them, and
like Bill Wiese, they have been "deceiving the whole world."

(PLACE FOR THE IMAGE)

God calls them: Priests, Pastors, Prophets, Apostles, Shepherds,
Watchmen, Teachers, Evangelists, & Ministers, but collectively they
are the "angels & ministers" of Satan.

PLEASE NOTE: I am not saying that all Christian Ministers are the Devil's Angels, but those that are the Devil's angels are ministers and leaders in the Christian Church. There is no other group that can be called "many" which do "many wonderful works in the Name of Jesus" except teachers and ministers in the Christian Church. It is impossible to even conceive of a single non-Christian who would do "many wonderful works," and do them "in the Name of Jesus." So where would one find "MANY" non-Christians who do "many wonderful works" in the "Name of Jesus?"

I will not use real photos of real Christian leaders, as it is not my responsibility to judge any specific Church leaders. But we are admonished: "...by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince [expose] the gainsayers [those who contradict sound doctrine]" And so, I am exposing this unscriptural and evil Christian doctrine of an eternal hell and those who teach it.

No Christian who has studied the Scriptures and been gifted with even a meager understanding, should be blown away by this revelation regarding the deception of Church leaders. God has always held His church leaders and spiritual guides responsible for the failures in the Church and in the nation. It is shocking when one first reads of God's condemnation of the leaders in His Church.

[arion]

Paul said;

2Co 2:11  Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. 

A lot of Christians are very ignorant of his devices as we all were when we were in the church system.  It is not wrong to expose those devices for what they are.  That is part of what the teachings we have received here are for.  Now then, there is an unhealthy preoccupation with such things on the part of many and it gets to the point where many Christians rival the non believers when it comes to religious superstitious nonsense.  I don't think too much about satan as I know that his powers are circumscribed and tightly controlled.  God keeps a very tight leash on him if you will. 

Like in many things there is balance involved.  Some don't want to say anything about satan because they are afraid that gives glory to him and they are religiously superstitious and are also afraid of attracting any attention from the dark side.  And others are preoccupied with things such as so called [the way they call it] spiritual warfare and wanting to learn the names of demons and how to cast them out, ect.  The balance I believe is somewhat in the middle.   Be aware and learn the lessons that God has us to learn about satan and his operations and then move on with the lessons God is teaching us.

[Kat]

Hi Rick, I think that this thread can be very useful for some that come to this forum. The thing is there are some people that have not come out of the church yet. Some are new to this site and maybe don't yet feel drawn to leave, others have family and friends in church that they are trying to appease by continuing to attend.

So sometimes we have to reveal the dark side in order to see/understand as a contrast.

John 1:4  In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
v.5  And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Eph 5:11  And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

1Peter 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lareli]

1 Cor 13 says you can know all the mysteries of God, which would include the truth about salvation, but if you don't have love... You are nothing.

"Come out of her" does this mean to literally and physically avoid a physical building with the word "church" on the front of it? Isn't Revelations a book of symbols and metaphors?

Isn't it possible for some to heed the call of "come out of her" physically but spiritually remain in the same religious condition?

And likewise, isn't it possible for some to spiritually "come out of her" and yet physically be in the same vicinity as a physical church building?

Like Se7en said, isn't the seat of satan in our hearts and not a physical seat in a physical building?

[acomplishedartis]

1 Cor 13 says you can know all the mysteries of God, which would include the truth about salvation, but if you don't have love... You are nothing.

"Come out of her" does this mean to literally and physically avoid a physical building with the word "church" on the front of it? Isn't Revelations a book of symbols and metaphors?

Isn't it possible for some to heed the call of "come out of her" physically but spiritually remain in the same religious condition?

And likewise, isn't it possible for some to spiritually "come out of her" and yet physically be in the same vicinity as a physical church building?

Like Se7en said, isn't the seat of satan in our hearts and not a physical seat in a physical building?

Hi largeli
Since we are communicating through an online forum and you can't perceive the way I am talking, you should know that I am talking with you with all kindness and respect.

I am sorry but I can't merely see what's your point. Of course we are to come out of her spiritually. Actually in all this thread I haven't even mention that we should come out of the building, what I was saying is how the church institution works.
Once we have come out of her spiritually, personally, I don't see the convenience or benefit of keep going to the building, years ago it was okay for me to go, but I no longer need it, it would be like going to the kinder garden once again. I remember I came out of her first and then when I was ready; I stoped going to the building since I had better things to do. Maybe some day you will be ready.

I hope you have no hard feelings toward me for whatever I have said on this thread. I have just been merely pointing out how things are and work in church.

Here are some emails Ray responded regarding 'church'. May helps:

-------------------------
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2052.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3836.0.html

The synagogues became corrupted and the churches today are corrupted. So where do you want to go?  If you want fellowship why not foin a social club and keep the false religion out of your fellowship.

Jesus taught us that we are to worship God in spirit and in truth, not in this mountain or in Jerusalem, or in a building, or another other "place" that is corrupted.  I can't tell people what to do. If "christian fellowship" means more to them than "godly worship," then I guess they just  have to keep looking.

Being a follower of Jesus Christ was never designed to be a "feel good religion" as many christian churches promise if you join their particular tents on living a worldly life for Jesus.  I trully never miss, "CHURCH"!  I "go to church" every time I open my Bible."
God be with you,
Ray


---------------

  Dear Glenda:  Money, fear, and power. It's all about money, fear, and power. Take away the money, fear, and power, and much of Christendom will come crashing down.  It is a damnable thing that many pastors are doing to well-meaning people who think they are following Jesus.  And what is worse, many of these sincere and well-meaning people often become just like their leaders. They defend evil and heresy with every ounce of their being. It is sad. Thank GOD you have been shown the Truth!
        God be with you,
        Ray

-----------------------

Dear Roy:

    You don't need a church when you learn that YOU ARE THE CHURCH.  God is wherever you are, so don't feel deserted.

    God be with you,

    Ray

[rick]

Hi Moises,

I see now the misunderstanding is with me and not you,  I apologize to you for things I said out of ignorance and should of thought it through before I posted anything. I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

I have my beliefs about the evil one known as Satan. I had things happen to me in the past that were demonic in nature , it was things I experience that brought me to God out of fear.

I could tell you things I experience but to me, that is giving glory to the Devil, and that I will not do. I will say this one thing in all I had experience and its this, I called out to Jesus and afterwards I never experience any demonic thing since .


so, I over reacted is what I did and that is to my shame no doubt. My apologizes to you Moises. 



peace and love to all. 

[Dave in Tenn]

Largeli, yes it is possible to no longer attend the services and still be riddled with carnal religion.  Yes, it is possible to 'check off' a list of doctrinal positions and still not have love.  Yes, it is possible also to judge people for supposedly having no love without understanding what love is.  Read the "kiss of death" paper on the front page...it's quite short and to the point.

My 'story' is different from many others around these parts.  It was "possible" for me to leave the church and go straight into the world and stay there for decades.   It was "possible" for me to 'come out of her' not because I thought I was better, but because I knew I was worse.

Lots of things are "possible".  You have your own row to hoe, just as each and all of the rest of us do.  For me to visit a church would be much like visiting the ruins of the temples of the ancient greek gods if I found myself in Greece.  But to sit week after week under that influence is not something I can do.  And if I DID for long, and followed my heart in the doing, they wouldn't let me stay.  That's more than fine by me.     But I understand it is more difficult for some.   

[acomplishedartis]

No probrem Rick, I knew you were kind of new around here and that's why I didn't respond.


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Just for further clarification. I would like to mention that I also have in mind that there is all kind of church leaders that have done wrong in different degrees, as I know that there is all kind of church members that have been manipulated on different degrees. Our minds, our time and the space for writing is often limited and so the best I could do around here is to share a couple points regarding christendom from a general point of view. Thanks God everyone judgement is and it's going to be personalized.

Honestly, I no longer buy the argument about; we pretty safe and comfortable behind our computers typing in the web like cowards, main while brave people die for their crazy heretic religious beliefs out there as we should.
First of all, if we find ourselves physically safe and clean behind our computers it's because this is the playground that God chose for us to overcome our carnality. What matters the most is what we think about all day long and our true wished toward others. Truth is that now days where many of us live, violence is out of fashion, however, we still have to endure other kinds of persecution, like psychological coercion, social pressure, political, commercial and religious propaganda, etc.     

I think that two persons on this thread felt uncomfortable by my first post, maybe because they probably have people closer to them which are Christians, as I do. And neither do I like to see them as people who are being manipulated, deceived and used so badly by their religious leaders. In my case, I often suffer badly for them, while I can't do much about it.

And Paul seems that he was on the same position:
''I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh'' (Rom 9:1-3)

We must learn to separate what we know to be truth about the Church from our merciful feelings toward those that have been deceived by the Church. No body said that this was going to be an easy and not tricky road.
My dad died when I was a kid, and he was a pastor, and of course he was a descent person according to his surroundings, however, now I can separate my personal feelings from what is truth.
And the truth is that God is going to deal with him in total righteousness and eventually he is going to be purified as the rest of humanity.


I believe this is going to be my last post on this thread. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Moises

[lareli]

1 Cor 13 says you can know all the mysteries of God, which would include the truth about salvation, but if you don't have love... You are nothing.

"Come out of her" does this mean to literally and physically avoid a physical building with the word "church" on the front of it? Isn't Revelations a book of symbols and metaphors?

Isn't it possible for some to heed the call of "come out of her" physically but spiritually remain in the same religious condition?

And likewise, isn't it possible for some to spiritually "come out of her" and yet physically be in the same vicinity as a physical church building?

Like Se7en said, isn't the seat of satan in our hearts and not a physical seat in a physical building?

I am sorry but I can't merely see what's your point. Of course we are to come out of her spiritually. Actually in all this thread I haven't even mention that we should come out of the building, what I was saying is how the church institution works.
Once we have come out of her spiritually, personally, I don't see the convenience or benefit of keep going to the building, years ago it was okay for me to go, but I no longer need it, it would be like going to the kinder garden once again. I remember I came out of her first and then when I was ready; I stoped going to the building since I had better things to do. Maybe some day you will be ready.

If there is confusion its probably because my post that you quoted above was in response to JFK saying  Run as fast as you can from the Christian churches.  Separate yourselves from them.  Don't look back. as well as Kat saying But it is also God's will that we be prudent to recognize those that are deceived and blinded to the truth and to avoid them. and also to all the other anti-people who go to church posts..

Im just trying to gain a better understanding of why there is such a fear of "church people"... Theyre not the boogie man and theyre not ghouls or monsters... theyre just lost sheep as we all once were. And for someone to be rescued from the cesspool of church only to thumb your nose at the others who are still drowning in the cesspool seems hypocritical to me. Why not, instead... Go fishing in the cesspool? Isn't that where Jesus went fishing? Isn't that where the apostles likewise went fishing?

[Kat]

Hi largeli,

Well maybe I didn't express that as well as I could have. We do not need to avoid Christians, I have family members that are active in their church and are very dear to me, I would never avoid them or any Christian for that matter. What I meant is avoid involvement with their religion, I have no desire to join them in their cesspool.

Im just trying to gain a better understanding of why there is such a fear of "church people"... Theyre not the boogie man and theyre not ghouls or monsters... theyre just lost sheep as we all once were. And for someone to be rescued from the cesspool of church only to thumb your nose at the others who are still drowning in the cesspool seems hypocritical to me. Why not, instead... Go fishing in the cesspool? Isn't that where Jesus went fishing? Isn't that where the apostles likewise went fishing?

If I thought for one minute 'I' could open their eyes to this truth of course I would talk about it to them all the time, but I know it's God that must draw them to Christ.

John 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

I have mentioned a bit of this truth to family members and they know I would gladly answer any questions they had, they are not interested and I'm not going to force it on them.

How long do you think any of us would last trying to proselyte among a church's congregation?

Mat 7:6  Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Those are Christ's words to warn us against foolishly witnessing. It's not like God is in a race to try to save as many as He can in this life, the elect are chosen even before they are born, they are destined to be of the elect and nothing can prevent or change that.

Eph 1:4  according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

The thing is for most of their lives an elect has no idea they are His chosen, they go into the church along with the rest of the called. Even when they have their eyes finally opened to learn these truths, God does not make it obvious they are His elect even then. I believe it is to keep you humble, it would be too hard for a carnal person to not be haughty about it.

Now the Apostles were sent out to find/make disciples, but consider they were taught directly by Christ and they were starting the church. It's not like we need to make people aware that Christ has risen and people need to repent. The Apostles has a special mission given to them, it does not mean we all are to do the very same thing.

Christ tells us it is, the few, that are to strive to enter the narrow/strait gate, not to try to drag as many through with us as we can.

Luke 13:24  Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

All of my closest family and most of my friends and co-workers have an active relationship with their church.  I neither hate nor fear them.  I do hate much of what they believe, and find it useless at best, and horribly evil at worst.  But I've never convinced anybody of any deep spiritual truth.  The closest I may have come is with those who are already 'underway'.  I don't 'concentrate' on them, but on myself.  I have problems they can't solve, and answers they can't hear.  I reckon when more of my problems are solved, they may be more willing to listen...but that is no guarantee they can believe.  All is of God.

I do 'feel sorry' for many in the pews...even many pastors...but not all.  For the most part (of those I actually know and love) they seem quite happy the way things are, so I don't 'feel sorry' for them in the conventional sense.  I 'feel sorry' for them because they have yet to see the beast rising out of the sea, and having their house built on sand fall, but I know it has to happen, and that soon thereafter, there will be joy--so I can't in faith 'feel too sorry' for them.

[arion]

@Kat...

Very well put indeed!