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Author Topic: Six words Ray wrote.  (Read 7279 times)

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cjwood

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2014, 10:53:23 PM »

 of course we know that any choice we make is the choice our Creator knew we would make





jfk, perhaps you missed this portion of my post.   ::)   
duh!    8)

claudia




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cjwood

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2014, 11:00:18 PM »

geewilwikers people!

theophilus, the statement i made was one ray used many, many times.  it is the essence of another statement "there is NO CHOICE we make that is FREE OF GOD'S CAUSING it to come about."  that truth is summarized all throughout the Scriptures.

claudia
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2014, 11:10:34 PM »

of course we know that any choice we make is the choice our Creator knew we would make





jfk, perhaps you missed this portion of my post.   ::)   
duh!    8)

claudia


Are you saying I'm thick headed?  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

What a thing to say to a harmless, lovable, little fuzzball.   :(

But, I'll get over it.   :-*
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cjwood

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2014, 11:31:05 PM »

you are priceless in the eyes of God, jfk.   :)

claudia

p.s.  you always get over it.  :)
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Abednego

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2014, 12:05:33 AM »

of course we know that any choice we make is the choice our Creator knew we would make

I think this statement gives too much fuel for the fire of the heretics.  If we make our choices based on a cause, maybe it would be better said that any choice we make is the choice our Creator wanted us to make.
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cjwood

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2014, 03:23:57 PM »

who cares what the heretics say or worry about??!!  i mean, really.  is this all coming down now to a question of being careful not to step on toes of heretics?  if ray had thought this way, this website would have never been started...

claudia
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Kat

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2014, 04:47:34 PM »


Here are a couple of emails from Ray that might be helpful, I too am trying to get the nuances of this down.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3815.0 -------

Why does God pre-ordain for certain men to rape little girls?
Why does He preordain for this to happen?
 
Lee
 

Dear Lee:
We must be careful how we use words and phrases and also be careful not
to draw fallacious conclusions from Scriptural Truths. The Bible nowhere says
that God "pre-ordained" such sins. It says he has a fore-knowledge OF such
sins. Many people over the years have tried to force me into saying that God sins
and that God is evil, but I won't say it, because I don't believe it. God nowhere
says that He "ordains" sin, and so I don't say it either.
 
God did not "pre-ordain" me to eat Girl Scott cookies today, but I did. Man has
the ability to think, plan, create, imagine, and carry out these devised lusts of his
heart, and yes, God KNEW a long time ago just what we would do,  but nowhere
does it say that God "pre-ordained" our sins. We live and operate under law. We
automatically do certain things under certain stimuli. It does not need to be "pre-
ordained."
 
Maybe what you are really asking is why did God create humanity so that they would
sin under all of these different stimuli?  But that's a topic too big for an email. Besides,
I have covered these things many times in the articles on our site. If you look up ordain
or ordained in a concordance, you will find that God has ordained dozens of things in
the Scripture, but nowhere does it say He ordained particular sins.
God be with you,
Ray

 Brother Smith,
     
    Thanks for responding to my e-mail a day or two ago.  And so soon too!  I appreciate it.
    I realize what you say in that we must be careful how we use words and phrases...and that where the Bible says nowhere that God "preordained" such sins.
    Of course, the Bible does not put it that way, that "God preordains sins".  God does NOT sin and God is NOT evil.  This we know for sure.  But I guess that what I am saying is that when it comes to the sins of mankind, why do we always come short in attributing these also to God, who He Himself has planned, and executed, and is responsible for all the actions of men.  "Oh no, He doesn't go that far"!  Why not?  Certain men raping little girls is not of God?  Why not?  I know that this sounds horrible to say but again, let me repeat that God does NOT sin and God is NOT evil.  His thoughts are not as our thoughts and His ways are not as our ways.
    A sparrow doesn't fall to the ground without the Father.  The very hairs on the heads of every creature are all numbered by God.  Are not "ALL things of God"?  Doesn't He "work ALL things after the counsel of His OWN will"?  Just how much of "ALL things are of God" are all?  Should we begin to say, "all things are of God, EXCEPT when it comes to the sins of His clay pots"?  When it comes to this, God had nothing to do with it; God didn't plan it; God didn't execute it; God didn't "pre-ordain" it.  Is that what we should say?  All things are of God except.................?    God planned for a certain man to be born at a certain time; He planned for another man and woman to be born at a certain time; He planned and ordained and arranged for where a certain man would live; He planned and arranged for another man and woman to meet and to get married and where they would live; He planned and ordained t hat this man and woman live in this neighborhood and have a daughter to be born; He planned for this other man to live next door to this man and woman; over the years, He planned for this daughter to grow and mature; one day, the man next door attacks and rapes this little girl, and then we say, "God had nothing to do with it; God does not preordain the sinful actions of his clay pots".  I don't understand.  Perhaps, we are not meant to understand.  Again I say that God does NOT sin and God is NOT evil.  But either ALL THINGS ARE OF GOD or they are not!
     
    Lee
     

    Dear Lee:
    I understand your frustration, but you are still lacking understanding.
    When a parent gives his teenager a little slack as we say, he knows
    that to some degree his teenager will abuse that liberty and do some
    things that are wrong. When he does, is the parent at fault? Did the
    parent actually commit the sin?  Is the parent guilty of the sin? Should
    the parent go to jail for the sin of his son? It is not as cut and dry as
    you would like it to be.
    "I [the Lord] create EVIL...." (Isa. 4:7). Therefore, according to your
    simplistic approach to this subject, God IS EVIL, right?  If God creates
    evil, then HE IS EVIL, isn't He? How could it be any other way according to your
    reasoning?  If God creates a man who will rape a little girl, then GOD
    HIMSELF RAPED THAT LITTLE GIRL, right?  If God planned it: He did it.
    Right?  Wrong.
    You would prefer that it be that simple and that crude, but it isn't. I am
    not denying that God had the foreknowledge of a particular rape, but I am
    not about to say that God pre-ordained that rape.  You can't conclude that:
    [1] God made humanity.  [2]  Humanity all sins.  [3] Therefore GOD IS SIN!
    The Scriptures tell us that "God CANNOT lie."  Yet we have several Scriptures
    that tell us God SENDS A LYING SPIRIT to deceive people. Therefore is God a LIAR
    when He tells us that He "CANNOT lie?"
    Let me help you with the answer:  Why is it wrong for one man to kill another
    man, but it is not wrong for God to kill a man? Several reasons:  [1] Intent of heart.
    God kills out of righteousness.  [2]  God kills for the welfare of the one He kills.
    [3] God has the power to bring back to life and rectify all wrongs and all evils,
    and is therefore FULLY JUSTIFIED IN ALL HIS WAYS.
     
    Hope the helps your understanding a little better.
    God be with you,
    Ray

Dear Sean and Forum:
 
Regarding your statement:  "Hi again Ray,
I think you've got me confused with the guy who sent the original
e-mail regarding this topic. I read it in the forum"
 
Yes, maybe I do have you confused with another. Since this hit the Forum it has been like a feeding frenzy. I have been getting all kinds of emails regarding my "contradiction." I will address this question later, as there is a whole lot more involved here than meets the eye with the word "ordained," which is used to represent nearly a dozen separate words in the Bible. When I wrote Part 2 of my "Lake of Fire' series seven years ago, I assure you that I did not have in mind that "God ORDAINED specific men to rape and cut the heads of off of specific children." That was the furtherest thing from my mind when I was specifically countering the Christian teaching that God DOES NOT KNOW IN ADVANCE what people will think or do. However, "fore-ordained," was not a proper choice of words to be used to describe God's "foreknowledge," which is something totally different from "fore-ordained."
 
It doesn't effect the principle of the teaching, but I will change out the word "fore-ordained"
 
What God "ordains" in the Bible carries the connotation of almost putting His "blessing" on the thing that is ordained. But as we cannot find anywhere in the Scriptures where God specifically ordains a specific SIN of humanity, such raping a little girl, I naturally took offense when the initial question in this little debate asked, why does God ORDAIN dirty old men to rape little children? (or words to that effect). There is a difference between God "fore-knowing" something and "fore-ORDAINING" something, although many refuse to see it.
 
Hence we have such doctrines as "God cannot look upon sin," which is the result of a miss-translation in the book of Habakkuk. Likewise it is untrue that the sacrificing of children to the god Molech "never entered God's MIND."  The proper translation is "HEART." Is there a difference between mind and heart? Yes. Is there a difference between God not tempting any man, but yet sends temptations? Yes. Is there a difference between God "CANNOT lie"  and sending a "LYING spirit?" Yes there is, but I don't have time to do a whole paper on this subject right now, because I am far behind in more important things. People have tried by the hundreds and thousands to trip me up over the years to insinuate that if what I teach regarding the foreknowledge and Sovereignty of God is true, then they present a dozen ways in which that would mean God is the AUTHOR OF SIN, or that God Himself IS EVIL. If God KNOWS in advance that people will commit certain sins, then isn't he "condoning" such sin? If they are a necessary part of His Plan and Purpose do they not work and work good. Therefore are not all these things "good?" Therefore isn't raping little children and cutting their heads off, a GOOD THING?  Can you see where this kind of thinking leads?
 
I have no objection to a question like: "Why does God allow evil in the world?" I can answer that question. But, someone asks: "Why does God ORDAIN men to rape children?" that offends my spirit.. I will cover it in a future paper, but I just don't have the time right now, but I also didn't want everyone to think that I am avoiding the question or the many responses to it.   Hope you will all be patient.
 
God be with you,
Ray


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2354.0 -------------

Dear Whirlwind:

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong! 

Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it.  Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!

God be with you,

Ray
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 05:56:50 PM by Kat »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2014, 09:36:52 PM »

of course we know that any choice we make is the choice our Creator knew we would make

I think this statement gives too much fuel for the fire of the heretics.  If we make our choices based on a cause, maybe it would be better said that any choice we make is the choice our Creator wanted us to make.

No, I don't think that's the way to "better say" it.  That word "want" expresses a desire, and we have scripture that says what God's desires are, and many also which say what He does NOT desire/want.

     

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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

loretta

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2014, 05:31:58 AM »


I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it.  Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!


Ohhhh, I am so getting it! :)

Thanks for sharing these emails, Kat.



For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph 2:8-9

Grace is Divine favor from above.  Faith doesn't save us (it's through faith) and of course works don't save us.  Neither do faith and works together save us.  Grace saves us.  All comes from God.

Give all the glory to God.  Humankind do not know their right hand from their left without the grace of God.


More about Grace as Ray expounds it beautifully in his teaching here.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB1upDX-NSk

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Nice thread, very nice indeed. Tks everyone, especially those who are dedicatedly studying the Word and sharing here.  For some of us this is the only serious study going on at this moment in our lives.  :-[
This is true spiritual church.
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jingle52

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2014, 07:56:11 AM »

Apologies for the slip, my bad  :-[  we are held accountable for our actions.  ;D
Jingle
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Abednego

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2014, 11:15:57 AM »

who cares what the heretics say or worry about??!!  i mean, really.  is this all coming down now to a question of being careful not to step on toes of heretics?  if ray had thought this way, this website would have never been started...

claudia

I think it makes a big difference.  It's the difference between believing God has everything planned out to the minute detail vs. a reactionary God who is constantly fixing what we do with our free will because he "knew" we would do it.
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Abednego

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2014, 02:28:52 PM »

of course we know that any choice we make is the choice our Creator knew we would make

I think this statement gives too much fuel for the fire of the heretics.  If we make our choices based on a cause, maybe it would be better said that any choice we make is the choice our Creator wanted us to make.

No, I don't think that's the way to "better say" it.  That word "want" expresses a desire, and we have scripture that says what God's desires are, and many also which say what He does NOT desire/want.

   

Dave, I don't disagree with what you are saying, so maybe choosing want is not the correct word.  But knew doesn't do it for me either.

Reference http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1595.msg13417.html#msg13417

First I would like to say that I have found your web site to be extremely valuable.  It has answered many questions that have been unanswered for many years.  I do have one question for you.  It is believed that God does not change his mind, correct?  How do you explain Isaiah 38??? In verse one, I am quoting from the Amplified Bible, ...thus says the Lord, set you house in order, for you shall die and not live.  Then in verse 3, Hezekiah prayed and cried.  Then in verse 5, ...Lord said, I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will add to your life fifteen years. Did Hezekiah's prayer and tears influenced God to change his mind? I think so, why would it read that God heard Hezekiah's prayer and tears if it was not important in prolonging Hezekiah's life?  First, God said, you shall die and not live.  Then God said, I have heard your prayer, and seen your tears, so I will add 15 years to your life.  It sounds to me that God changed his mind. Don't you agree? What do you think? Am I missing something? Is it a mistranslation? I know that you receive so many emails, so I will be surprised if you take the time to answer mind; but I hope so. Maybe, if I pray and cry, the Lord will grant me my prayer for you to answer (correctly) this email.  Gee, I wish it was that easy: just pray and cry and God will answer prayer.
 
Thank you, in advance, for your thoughts on this subject.
 
Joe V.


No, Joe, I do not agree with you that God "changed His mind." God never ever CHANGES his mind. First, God NEVER CHANGES His mind about anything. He plainly tells us so in Mal. 3:6.  And in Num. 23:19 we are told that God is NOT A MAN that He should lie or that he should repent [change HIs mind].
God did not lie when he said that Hezekiah would die--he did die. And furthermore he would have died 15 years SOONER IF something else didn't take place. And so God saw to it that something else did take place. Hezekiah's prayer was OF GOD, seeing that "ALL IS OF GOD."  No one can say a prayer unless and until God first preordains that that person will say a prayer. Read my latest post on "PRAYING BY GOD'S RULES" and also my 120 page seres on "The Myth of Free Will Expose," which explain this whole subject in great detail using dozens and dozens and dozens of Scriptures to back it up.
God be with you,
Ray

This comes to mind when I think of God knowing something.  Yes, God knew that Hezekiah's life would be extended, but He knew it before Hezekiah was ever born.  To say God knew something is true, but the fact is the reason he knew it is because that is the way it was supposed to be period.
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2014, 03:23:14 PM »

God has a very detailed mind, intelligence, and control over all things.

There is that Scripture where it says birds do not die without the Father's permission.

Another Scripture says the hairs of our head are all numbered.

Another Scripture says God names all the stars (which our science says there are hundreds of billions of them).

If God has so much control of those things mentioned above, how much more control and knowledge does He have over all mankind, which is His crowning achievement of creation in that He is creating beings in His own image, after His own kind, who He calls His kin, His sons and daughters, His family.
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Abednego

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2014, 05:02:49 PM »

^This
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2014, 12:31:37 AM »

No worries, Abednego.  Actually, I think it does little good in the long run to talk in generalities.  I can't hold such big thoughts in my head 24/7. 

 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Joel

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Re: Six words Ray wrote.
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2014, 03:15:22 AM »

Ray asked the question, "but do they believe the scriptures?" And he answers that question many times by saying, "they despise the Word of God."
He shows time after time how they try to make the scriptures null and void by all their beliefs in the various dogmas, and creeds contrived by man.
Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth.
Shall the clay say to him that fashioned it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10-Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
1 Timothy 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

Joel
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