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lake of fire/second dead...

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Kat:

Well Antaiwan, to me it is not a question of the elect developing the ability to rule the world with Christ now or later... How could they ever hope to develop such an ability (the quality of being able: power, skill) accept it is given to them, a gift, by/through Christ? Isn't everything we have a gift from God.

But I think I know what you are saying... won't the elect have to learn how to rule? I really don't think that's how it works.

1Peter 4:11  If anyone speaks, let it be as the words of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as of the ability which God gives, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory, and the might forever and ever. Amen.

When the elect rule it will be to the glory of God 'through' Jesus Christ, the person is not able to bring any ability, power or even knowledge into the equation. This life is to gain a backdrop from this experience we are having in this physical life, for our own understanding and so we relate to the people to be ruled in the next age. We are gaining a knowledge of how good and evil works and the consequences, learning humility, etc. These things are the basics we need, but I think it's all God needs to use the elect to do the work He desires to do 'through' them in the next age.

Yes they will keep their personality, He is creating us all into unique individuals, I believe that is an important part of what He is accomplishing with the human race. To think that being 'one' with God is dissolving into a single all powerful entity is entirely wrong, and totally nullifies this individuality that God is accomplishing in us in this life.

But just as Christ could do nothing of His own self, neither can the elect do anything without Christ. EVERYTHING the elect do when ruling is to the glory of God, and His work in/through them will be perfect, as they will have been perfected in resurrection. That's what it means by, " He must increase, but I must decrease." We must release all of this carnality - enmity against God, that will only happen at resurrection into spirit.

John 5:30  I can do nothing of My own self. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of the Father who has sent Me.

John 15:5  I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Maybe it's a little hard to face the idea that we have to release or have all of our 'own' will (actually carnality) removed, after all that's all we know right now. But when God abides in us it full power, I do not think we can comprehend how much of a glorious thing that will be.

1John 4:16  And we have known and believed the love that God has in us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
v. 17  In this is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, that as He is, so also we are in this world.

1Cor 2:9  But as it is written, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard," nor has it entered into the heart of man, "the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Dave in Tenn:
Antaiwan, I brought up the thing about 'bad habits' to try to shake loose the idea from the understanding of that scripture that Paul is talking about his 'bad habits'. 

I think it's a given that the elect are not going to rule with a WILL to do evil, but with a WILL to do good.  That's a will subject to Sovereign God, and with the character-traits of God.  According to Paul, he had a vision of the seventh heaven.  Me? I don't even know what that means...but I strongly suspect it is far, far beyond the christian heaven of hard rock candy mountain and an eternity of playing golf with Uncle Bony.  He said of his vision that it was 'unlawful' or 'inexpedient' to utter.  He endured inordinate blows to keep him humble over what he had been shown. 

Now, Paul had not just THIS vision, but a whole boatload of deep spiritual truths.  He did his utmost to preach them, LIVE THEM, and protect them.  But he could not do ALL that was in his heart and mind to do.  Why not?  Because 'falling short' is what we do.  It ain't always gonna be this way.

Ray isn't a bible character, so maybe there's something to learn from him as well without theological baggage.  Ray had a wealth of spiritual truths (gathered not just from study, but from the life experiences which the Lord put him through) and did his utmost to teach them, live them, and protect them.  But you don't have to go very far reading in the email section or sometimes on the forum how 'exceedingly difficult' (the point of impossibility) it was for Ray to 'do the good which he willed/wanted to' for any number of reasons...not least of which is that the Lord Himself must open/unclose eyes and give understanding.

That's the 'phenomenon' I think Paul is talking about, at least the major part of it.  I could use my own self as a small example, except the will/desire to do good is not always in me, and neither is the will/desire to not do evil.  It ain't always gonna be this way, either.

   

acomplishedartis:
wow, I had not been able to come to see the forum lately, seems like you guys are having a great conversation.

Kat,  I wish someday be able to talk with you personally. By the way your last post have some very good points, also Rene's.

Ataiwan, I am glad you liked the topic. If you don't feel right now that you are ready to rule with Christ, you are not alone on it, but we will have to hold our breath and wait until we are death, God is very good to make big changes in people with little time (the best example is Paul). I am glad I am only 27 years old, sometimes I feel that I am learning and growing and other times I don't feel so inspired. Also sometimes I feel as if had already live many lives (in my own life) because of the very different life experiences that I have had on the last 10 years.

The more a try to learn key verses, the more I realize that we are to become more like Jesus, ...and, how was Jesus? He was humble... so I guess that's what I need and what I should be looking for... reminds me some verse in Ec. about we humans having an experience of evil so that we can learn humility.

Probably God doesn't need to show us all the technical aspects of ruling, and he just desire a humble heart ready to follow him and say; here I am, what's next...

(personally, I just wish I could find a humble girl I could marry and be more humble myself--usually people tends to relate lack of physical objects with humility, but I believe that's wrong. When talking about true humility, objects have no place on the equation,, well you guys surely already know about it, I just mention it because this is something that I have been learning lately and wanted to share...)

Moises

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