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Author Topic: John 5:37  (Read 10736 times)

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bob

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John 5:37
« on: April 28, 2014, 02:39:55 PM »



Jesus, God?
on: May 31, 2007, 10:27:28 PM
 Ray commented on this verse saying,  "Jesus emphatically declared that no man at any time has ever seen or HEAR THE VOICE of God His Father" (John 1:18; 5:37; Matt. 11:27; John 6:46; Luke 10:22, etc., etc.)
Was he just referring to the Jews at that time or does this still apply now in our time?
Bob
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John from Kentucky

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2014, 04:14:22 PM »


Col 1:15 is one of the major Scriptures that explain how God is.

Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God.  The Father is the invisible Force behind everything.  He is outside our five senses.  He cannot be seen or heard by us.

Jesus is His visible image.  Jesus is God.  Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.  Jesus is the only access to the invisible God.
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Ian 155

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2014, 05:01:21 PM »

it is an interesting question

Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Joh 14:7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

as opposed to  Joh 5:37  And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

many thousands saw Christ according to the gospels,Jesus was crowded all the time, then Paul was introduced as well, literally this word is so big  we are puny in what we call knowledge, Ray has some stuff on his understanding of the question i think i heard it on an audio
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2014, 07:25:12 PM »

many thousands saw Christ according to the gospels,Jesus was crowded all the time, then Paul was introduced as well, literally this word is so big  we are puny in what we call knowledge, Ray has some stuff on his understanding of the question i think i heard it on an audio

As Ray pointed out: Not many became disciples:

Act 1:15  And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
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bob

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2014, 07:52:13 PM »

Thanks John and Ian, so would we agree that the voice heard from heaven when John Baptized Jesus was not God the father? Even though it said this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. If so   how would we explain to someone questioning the scripture itself as being UN true, if in fact it was not God the father in that case? If the scripture is true then wouldnt it be God the father speaking?
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Kat

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2014, 08:20:00 PM »


Hi bob,

Here a email that explains that verse.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5374.0.html ---

Dear Mark:
Notice that it was "a" voice, not the Father's voice. God has many millions of messengers (erroneously called "angels" in Scripture). A messenger delivers messages. These particular message was that "This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased, hear ye Him."  The messenger ("a voice") delivered the message.  Simple, huh?

God be with you,
Ray

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santgem

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2014, 06:09:01 AM »

Even before the Jew and at the time of Jew many of them had already heard and seen God.

At the time of disciples they clearly see and hear God himself.

Then Jesus told them that no one heard and seen His Father at anytime..........
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bob

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2014, 12:08:47 PM »

My question came from this comment I found while searching the internet:
"In the three gospel accounts of the transfiguration of Jesus in Matthew 17, Mark 9, and Luke 9, Peter, James and John heard a voice say, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear him!" (Matthew 17:5). Simple logic tells us that this was the voice of God the Father. It could not have been an angel, or the words would be a lie!"  Aha, but  I just remembered Ray saying Jesus said tell no one the vision. It was a vision. I guess that would also apply to any references of God speaking in Revelation. If I may borrow a quote from Ray, " Am I off track on this"   Bob
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dave

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2014, 12:54:59 PM »

I am only asking about this because as I was reading the post, Genesis 2:16 came to mind as well as Gen. 3:8 thru- what command, voice, sound did man/Adam hear. Just so you know I must believe John 5:37
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John from Kentucky

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2014, 03:37:27 PM »


All of this is easy to understand if two basic, paramount truths are understood by the power of the Holy Spirit.

1)  God does not lie.

2)  God's Word does not lie.

That means there are no true contradictions in the Scriptures!  No, not one.

Of course, the unlearned and unstable can find hundreds, if not thousands of apparent contradictions in the Scriptures, and these apparent contradictions are the source of their unbelief.

When Jesus says that no one has seen or heard His Father--that is absolute truth.  There can be no contradiction of this basic truth or Jesus is a liar.  Which cannot be so because Jesus is God and does not lie.

Therefore, when others hear a voice that says, "This is my beloved Son", that voice is not the voice of the Father.

Whose voice is it?  As Ray simply stated it, it is the voice of a messenger.  A messenger brings a message.  There are no two Scriptures that say the voice was actually the voice of the Father.

In Col 1:15 and elsewhere, Jesus is the image of the invisible God.  In John 1:1 Jesus is called the Word or Spokesman or Expression of God.

The Father is invisible Spirit outside our five senses and our comprehension.  If the Father could be seen or heard, then why would Jesus be needed as His visible image or His Word?

In the Old Testament, when God is seen or heard, it is therefore not the Father.  It is the One we know as Jesus.

None of the Scriptures contradict, which is why those with God's Spirit can have peace and understanding, if they believe the Scriptures by the Grace of God.
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bob

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2014, 04:13:51 PM »

Thanks JFK I believed this all along. I was looking for loop holes and you just shut them as far as I am concerned. Back on track====== Bob
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Ian 155

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2014, 05:38:14 AM »

Bob,

I believe all of this is a matter of understanding, we are given spiritual ears and eyes.(if we ask ,are led to ask)all of us see dimly ...1Co 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then(as we grow in him) face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
So i would think we are in process of getting to know him or see him for who he really is (this to me is the perfecting process).

We see The Father with spiritual eyes ,the eyes of our hearts If we are at a stage where" f you have seen me ,You have seen the father" our understanding (eyes) are  being opened.

So  the statement "no MAN has seen the father nor heard his Voice" could this possibly apply to "NO CARNAL, SELF INDULGENT BEAST" who is prideful in his understanding of literal ,logical translations

Seems I need to ask for more grace in order to understand. I have been reminded of a few scriptures....

The lords Messenger said to Moses you cannot see my face and live ( is this when we see his face we die spiritually)?Exo 33:20  And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.


Lest a kernel fall to the ground and die it cannot  (see GOD) perhaps.....

Gen 32:30  And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exo 33:11  And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.( Does Moses represent Christ in this verse?he is about to die (because he has seen God with his spiritual eyes) and Joshua is getting prepared to lead) ??

As I said Interesting Question


Its a matter of the degree of understanding one has been given at least that is what I believe
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indianabob

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2014, 03:31:22 PM »

Folks,

I have been told that the phrase "face to face" could have been translated "i have been in the presence of".

In those days before telephones,  ;D when dignitaries visited a foreign nation they spoke with authority from having it delegated to them by a ruler such as a king or emperor. So the credentials were proven by the statement that the message came from the King and not from some lower level servant.

So when the English translation says I have seen the face of God or [god a superior person] it could have been translated I believe that I felt God's presence and am sure that the message given to me in my mind or via a vision was from God. Of that they had no doubt.

The translation of foreign tongues is a very subjective discipline and we need to be careful to discover whether it is a word for word translation even in the case where there is no exact word in the other language or whether it is a translation of what was meant by the original author, but put in terms that are close to what would have been understood by a native speaker living during the exact time period in question.

That's why it is dangerous to take a statement from scripture that stands alone, when we should compare the statement with the whole of scripture in context.

I do believe that Ray Smith covered this topic in his letters.

Indiana Bob
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Kat

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2014, 04:21:14 PM »


Hi Ian, most translations do not even have the word "man" in the verse.

John 5:37  And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

And if you use that logic then Jesus Christ was a man when He made that comment, so I think it included Himself that had not seen the Father's face. The Father is not a person or even a being to have a face or voice and that is what the Son was for, "the Word made flesh" and "the image of God."

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

John 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory (that was speaking of the believers with the Spirit indwelling), the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

But in the account of Moses in Exodus 33 in verse 11 it says "so the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." Then down in verse 18 it seems that Moses is asking for something different, v. "he said, "Please, show me Your glory" and that is when the LORD said in verse 20, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live." So it seems the same words face or face to face can mean something different in different places in Scripture, I guess that is where spiritual discernment comes in. When the LORD appeared to somebody in the OT, and that would always have been the Son who would become Jesus Christ, like in verse 11 it seems to have been in a image/form that was like a normal human being. But the glorious 'face' was a totally different thing, but He did allow Moses a glimpse.

Exo 33:22  So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.
v. 23  Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."

All of the images of people seeing "the LORD" in the OT is the Son, not the Father, but even then it would not be the Son in His glorious state of being.

Gen 12:7  Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." 

Gen 26:24  And the LORD appeared to him (Isaac) the same night and said...

1Sam 3:21  Then the LORD appeared again in Shiloh. For the LORD revealed Himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.

I think there is a parable in the exchange between Moses and the LORD in Ex 33, as is usually the case. Since Moses predated Christ appearing in the flesh, and there Moses wanted to 'see' or maybe know His glory, but as you were talking about the spiritual, I think this is speaking of the "face" or presence that reflects the spiritual/glorious aspect of His Being. This glory may have been reserved to be revealed more so later, to the elect as it was revealed to Paul.

2Co 12:2  I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago--whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body I have not known, God hath known--such an one being caught away unto the third heaven;
v.7  and that by the exceeding greatness of the revelations I might not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh...

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 11:08:29 PM by Kat »
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santgem

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2014, 03:39:13 AM »

The fact is, God has an image!

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."Gen 1:26
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Ian 155

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2014, 02:00:26 PM »

 Kat there are some translated Man, the version "You" would apply to the disciples ( unregenerate )? 
Yes I agree the word face is speaking of spiritual sight/presence, not an actual face,
thanks
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Nathan

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2014, 02:55:46 PM »

Quote
The fact is, God has an image!

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."Gen 1:26

The Father's image is the Son. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. So, yes, God is invisible and also has an image.
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Kat

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2014, 03:28:23 PM »


Hi Ian, unregenerate yes, but actually it was not the disciples He was speaking to. In this chapter the verses before show that on this occasion Jesus was in the Temple speaking to the Jews.

John 5:14  Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you."
v. 15  The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
v. 16  For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
v. 17  But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 06:18:10 PM by Kat »
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santgem

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2014, 03:49:16 AM »

Quote
The fact is, God has an image!

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."Gen 1:26

The Father's image is the Son. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. So, yes, God is invisible and also has an image.


Greetings Nathan,

I was wondering that God has an image even before "the Word made flesh" and "Moises saw the back parts of God." :)
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Kat

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2014, 11:43:32 AM »


I was wondering that God has an image even before "the Word made flesh" and "Moises saw the back parts of God." :)

Hi santgem, well there are quite a few times where "the Lord" or the "Angel of the Lord," the Son did appear to people in the OT as a 'man.' I believe that "the Angel of the Lord" was actually the name of God in the OT, as that is what was the name initially in the episode of burning bush, but then it states it is the LORD.

Exo 3:2  And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
v. 3  Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn."
v. 4  So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am."

It doesn't seem like He appeared as a man in the burning bush, but He also appeared to Gideon as "the Angel of the Lord... face to face."

Jdg 6:12  And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him, and said to him, "The LORD is with you, you mighty man of valor!"

Jdg 6:22  Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the LORD. So Gideon said, "Alas, O Lord GOD! For I have seen the Angel of the LORD face to face."
v. 23  Then the LORD said to him, "Peace be with you; do not fear, you shall not die."
 
He does seem to have appeared to Adam and Eve as a man 'walking' in the cool of the day in the Garden of Eden.

Gen 3:8  And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

Three 'men' appeared and visited with Abraham and ate a meal with him.

Gen 18:1  Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
v. 2  So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,

A 'Man' wrestled with Jacob all night and this I believe was a literal event that happened, yet represents a parable about Israel.

Gen 32:24  Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day.
v. 30  So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

He also appeared to Moses and many elders of the Israelites, I'm not sure what form this was, but it was in some kind of recognizable image and notice He had "feet."

Exo 24:9  Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
v. 10  and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.

So this is the Scripture that I could find that I felt could help to show that the Son did have an image before He was a human man, and when appearing to people in the OT He did literally appear in a human form.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 03:30:08 PM by Kat »
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