> General Discussions
It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
Mike Gagne:
Kat, I am not trying to booster my ideas on scriptures, I am trying to understand how we will be accountable, I can see giving a account, two different meanings! Anyhow I guess if I am not like minded they I must be lower then you, and that's okay I have always been lower then most! And I will not bother this website any more.
Dave in Tenn:
No, not really two different meanings. You just need to use a better dictionary. ;D Forget the whole "Accountable" word if it bothers you. It seems to be a stumbling block for some. Trust me, the whole stupid english language is not worth the heartache.
Mike, seems like what you are describing is similar to Pharaoh in his dealings with Moses and/or Aaron. There came a time when he WANTED to let the children of Israel go, but the LORD hardened his heart for His own purposes. "Wanting" and "choosing" are not the same thing either. In the end, he CHOSE not to let them go UNTIL HE CHOSE TO LET THEM GO. The evidence is--HE DIDN'T LET THEM GO...and then he did.
Who gets credit for that? God does. Who takes responsibility for hardening Pharaoh's heart against his own former wishes for a season? God does.
Then you have Peter. I don't doubt that Peter wanted and intended to "not deny". I don't think he was lying about his wishes and intentions. I just think he was wrong about what he would do when the time came. His "will" didn't match his "imagination". This "experience of evil" is to humble us.
Who "prophesied" what Peter would do? Jesus did. Who knew Peter better than Peter knew himself? Jesus did.
Peter and Pharaoh are not the same, but they both have one thing in common.
When I was a young christian just starting college, I fancied myself a pretty devoted believer. The first day in a History class in my first semester, the professor asked derisively if there was anybody present who believed there was a God. I COULD NOT raise my own hand...and that was to simply acknowledge a vague belief in some form of God as a thing or a person or whatever--nothing compared to what Peter was facing.
Talk about being humbled. I'm STILL humbled by that forty years later. I can't go back in time and "fix" that. There was a reason (many, actually) WHY I was unable to raise my hand. It's been in understanding THOSE that I've experienced the "good" from that event. But it wasn't "good" at the time, just "good for me".
How's that for "better than somebody else"? You actually may have nothing on me as far as being "worse than others". I know VERY well that we can't do what we want just because we want to...even if we really, REALLY want to. That too is of God.
Even if we DON'T want to...that too is of God. But that's not the end of things.
--- Quote from: pylady on June 20, 2014, 08:04:52 PM ---Hi Mike, Romans 14:12 "So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God." We can't deny this scripture. It's there in our Bibles!
But what does it mean this "giving account"? I'm going to give you my personal belief. I don't believe we must give an account so we can be punished or condemned for our sins. Nor do I believe it's for God's sake because He already knows everything we've done, indeed, every inclination of our hearts.
Giving an account (accountability) is for our sake. It is part of our judgement - and remember judgement is, yes, chastisement, but also discipline and teaching. Indeed being held accountable is a necessary part of our salvation.
We know know judgement and salvation are gradual processes. The elect are being held accountable NOW, as they are being judged. Part of being judged is being taught. How can we learn if God does not open our eyes to the beast within us. When He opens our eyes we say "Yes, Lord, I am a beast and I've acted like beast my whole life. Please, Lord, live in me, kill the beast and all his sinful ways."
That is what accountablity means to me - Looking at myself thru Christ Jesus eyes, and owning up to what I am.
We are the beast with no good in us. Yes, God made us this way. For a purpose - when we see ourselves as we really are we know there is no salvation, no hope for us without Christ Jesus..He is our salvation.
Salvation is a processs. Part of that process is having our eyes open to our hopelessly sinful nature. Seeing ourselves as we really are, admitting our sins, is being accountable, and is part of judgement. It is Christ Jesus bring us to salvation.
thanks for letting me put my 2 cent in.
Cindy
--- End quote ---
yep.
Rene:
--- Quote from: pylady on June 20, 2014, 08:04:52 PM ---Hi Mike, Romans 14:12 "So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God." We can't deny this scripture. It's there in our Bibles!
But what does it mean this "giving account"? I'm going to give you my personal belief. I don't believe we must give an account so we can be punished or condemned for our sins. Nor do I believe it's for God's sake because He already knows everything we've done, indeed, every inclination of our hearts.
Giving an account (accountability) is for our sake. It is part of our judgement - and remember judgement is, yes, chastisement, but also discipline and teaching. Indeed being held accountable is a necessary part of our salvation.
We know know judgement and salvation are gradual processes. The elect are being held accountable NOW, as they are being judged. Part of being judged is being taught. How can we learn if God does not open our eyes to the beast within us. When He opens our eyes we say "Yes, Lord, I am a beast and I've acted like beast my whole life. Please, Lord, live in me, kill the beast and all his sinful ways."
That is what accountablity means to me - Looking at myself thru Christ Jesus eyes, and owning up to what I am.
We are the beast with no good in us. Yes, God made us this way. For a purpose - when we see ourselves as we really are we know there is no salvation, no hope for us without Christ Jesus..He is our salvation.
Salvation is a processs. Part of that process is having our eyes open to our hopelessly sinful nature. Seeing ourselves as we really are, admitting our sins, is being accountable, and is part of judgement. It is Christ Jesus bring us to salvation.
thanks for letting me put my 2 cent in.
Cindy
--- End quote ---
This is what I was trying to say earlier, but Cindy explained it so much better. :)
René
Rene:
--- Quote from: Mike Gagne on June 20, 2014, 09:39:14 PM ---
Kat, I am not trying to booster my ideas on scriptures, I am trying to understand how we will be accountable, I can see giving a account, two different meanings! Anyhow I guess if I am not like minded they I must be lower then you, and that's okay I have always been lower then most! And I will not bother this website any more.
--- End quote ---
Mike, you do not have to run away because we are not agreeing with you. Humility is a part of the process. ;)
René
Mike Gagne:
Thank you Alex, Kat, Dave, Rene, and Cindy, I now see it. And it makes sense! I am a little rough around the edges, a man with little education and sometimes I have to go over things many times to fit it together! I am also having a struggle with this sovereignty and choices thing, but just reading that link you posted Kat kinda helps but I will keep going over it because I don't think God brought me here to keep my eyes closed! Sorry for rudeness! PS Rene there's no place left to run! If God brought me here to humble me then let it His will be done! Mike :)
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