> General Discussions
It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
Kat:
Mike, you cannot blame God for your sins (though He does take ultimate responsibility), because God does not actually tempt anybody to comment the sins that they do.
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
v. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1744.0.html ---
ALL IS OF GOD, but not is all of God directly. God created man--man SINS, God if free from sin and never sins or MAKES OR FORCES anyone to sin. Neither does He FORCE people to be rich or famous. God created man and man chooses what he does based on the strongest motivation in his heart.
And most people's heart consists of lust, lies, blasphemy and the like.
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of HIS OWN LUSTS [whether for bad and evil things or for for what we may perceive as good things which may not be good or righteous things], and enticed" (James 1:13-14).
Man has the ability to make choices. He does not have the ability to make choices that are free from any cause. The "cause" of most of our choices is our mind and heart. And of the abundance of our heart, our mind thinks, our tongue speaks, and in our body we take physical action. Only God can give us a "new" and pure heart.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1937.0.html ---------
Everyone has the ability to make choice, but that choice is based on SOME CAUSE, and that cause is what renders the choice to be not free.
God foresaw EVERYTHING in His creation BEFORE the creation. Therefore, nothing is "free" to go contrary to what God already knows MUST AND WILL BE! "For it is GOD which works in you both to WILL and to DO of His Good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). We must first believe the Scriptures before e will be able to understand the Scriptures.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: Mike Gagne on June 20, 2014, 07:21:25 AM ---Hi Dave! Is it really me that does it? Or do I just Go through it and experience it? If He does all his will and good pleasure , and none can stay his hand how do I do anything? Therefore how could I be accountable? Yes give a description/account, but to be accountable for his actions does not make sense to me! Because if he is doing the work in me they it is His actions for His purpose, and how could I be accountable for that! I know some don't think that God makes you sin, but He in fact made you who you are, a carnal man who hates God and wants nothing to do with him, a sinning beast! Anyhow off to work I go, and may Gods day for you be filled with joy! :) Mike
--- End quote ---
Mike, don't ask me to accuse you of having done anything. Perhaps you are the only person I have met who hasn't done anything. :D Me? I've done and still do everything I've done and do...AND I've "gone through it and experienced it". Those things aren't mutually exclusive, nor do they have the same shade of meaning. Peter (and the others) denied the Lord. It really wasn't until AFTER he did what he did that he FULLY "went through and experienced" WHY he did what he did. Do you think he wept because somebody else did it? Yet, looking back he remembered that it was the LORD Himself who "prophesied" what he would do. He couldn't have done differently, but he did what he did.
Mike Gagne:
Kat, if I can make a choice, then when I hated sticking a needle in my arm and wanted to and tried to stop several times why couldn't I ? My choice would be to stop but why couldn't I , then after years of struggling and hated it I stop, why? Let me answer that, because God granted it! If my choice was to stop why couldn't I ? Let me answers that,because God wouldn't let me! There where a lot of things I wanted to do but couldn't why, why, you guys are dancing around the sovereignty of God, none of you have commented on any of the scriptures I stated and that's okay, but is it because you don't believe them Kat? Dave, Peter had in his mind and heart to die that night with Jesus! Let me tell you why he denied Jesus, because God wouldn't let him do anything else, and maybe that's why he wept, because he wanted to do something/his choice, but God was sovereign and Peter wasn't. Alex you are a wise man and I respect your understanding and your thoughts. Thank you all, All in love...:)
pylady:
Hi Mike, Romans 14:12 "So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God." We can't deny this scripture. It's there in our Bibles!
But what does it mean this "giving account"? I'm going to give you my personal belief. I don't believe we must give an account so we can be punished or condemned for our sins. Nor do I believe it's for God's sake because He already knows everything we've done, indeed, every inclination of our hearts.
Giving an account (accountability) is for our sake. It is part of our judgement - and remember judgement is, yes, chastisement, but also discipline and teaching. Indeed being held accountable is a necessary part of our salvation.
We know know judgement and salvation are gradual processes. The elect are being held accountable NOW, as they are being judged. Part of being judged is being taught. How can we learn if God does not open our eyes to the beast within us. When He opens our eyes we say "Yes, Lord, I am a beast and I've acted like beast my whole life. Please, Lord, live in me, kill the beast and all his sinful ways."
That is what accountablity means to me - Looking at myself thru Christ Jesus eyes, and owning up to what I am.
We are the beast with no good in us. Yes, God made us this way. For a purpose - when we see ourselves as we really are we know there is no salvation, no hope for us without Christ Jesus..He is our salvation.
Salvation is a processs. Part of that process is having our eyes open to our hopelessly sinful nature. Seeing ourselves as we really are, admitting our sins, is being accountable, and is part of judgement. It is Christ Jesus bring us to salvation.
thanks for letting me put my 2 cent in.
Cindy
Kat:
Mike, of course I believe all the Scripture that you have posted, they are just part of the equation though, all the other Scriptures must be considered as well. I cannot say I can fully relate to what you have been through, because I have not been through anything like that, but the Apostle Paul did mention having just such feelings as you have talked about of helplessness to the pulls of the flesh.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
v. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
v. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
v. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
v. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
v. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
v. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Yes Paul certainly understood about the sovereignty of God, probably better than anybody else, and we have his words that we shall give account.
Rom 14:12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
I will give you another email from Ray because his articles are the reason we have joined here for these discussions, so we can strive to help one another in understanding these things. Now after all of this I do not feel you have come here to seek like minded fellowship, but to try and booster your own ideas of what the Scripture says about these things.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html --------------------
Dear Whirlwind:
You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."
I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.
So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS? Well, does He? Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls? That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will. They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong! Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things. Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money. God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.
I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it. Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!
God be with you,
Ray
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