God 'changed his mind'

[lareli]

I know that God doesn't change His mind.

How is Exodus 32:14 supposed to be accurately understood?

Exodus 32:14

14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

This is from the nasb and I see that the kjv says 'the Lord repented' instead of saying 'changed His mind' but Numbers 23:19 says God doesn't repent..

Also I know God doesn't lie. But when someone says they're gonna do something and then they don't do it... Don't we consider that a lie?

[indianabob]

Friend Largeli,
Mercy always trumps deserved punishment.
No it is not a lie when God "repents" of carrying out the penalty that we earned. Especially if it is given as a promise rather than a threat.
I tried to never threaten my four kids during their younger years, but I'm sure that my correction came across as threatening many times. Of course I'm not even close to God's perfect love in my parenting.

Also, even in Strong's concordance of the KJV there will be found many alternative definitions of Hebrew and Greek words. So we usually should dig deeper when we come across a scripture that mystifies us.

Thanks for the question. Indiana Bob

[John from Kentucky]

Here is where Ray discusses Exodus 32:14.  There are many other emails and articles where the same subject is discussed.  As always, study time and thinking over the Scriptures is necessary as guided by the Spirit of God.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2124.0.html

[lareli]

JFK thanks for the link. The answer in that link is understood.. That God told Moses what Moses needed to hear in order for Moses to respond how God wanted Moses to respond.. I can see this pattern repeated throughout scripture.. But what, then, constitutes a lie? If I say I'm going to do something and then I don't do it, wouldn't it be considered a lie?

Thanks for the replies, both of you.

[John from Kentucky]

JFK thanks for the link. The answer in that link is understood.. That God told Moses what Moses needed to hear in order for Moses to respond how God wanted Moses to respond.. I can see this pattern repeated throughout scripture.. But what, then, constitutes a lie? If I say I'm going to do something and then I don't do it, wouldn't it be considered a lie?

Thanks for the replies, both of you.

Two basic paramount truths from the Scriptures are: 1) God does not lie and 2) God's Word does not lie.

There is no need for Him to.  Who can stop Him when He decides to do something?

Consider Sodom and the cities of the Jordan plain.  God destroyed them without fanfare after Abraham's relatives left.  Wham--Bam--All Gone.  No talking needed.

He could have destroyed Israel in like manner.  But God was pulling Moses' chain to get a response.

One thing learned from Ray was to read all the words---carefully.  Notice in Exodus 32:10  ...that I may consume them...  God didn't say He would consume them, but may consume them.  May or may not. Indefinite.

[dave]

HE didn't.

[Rhys 🕊]

HE didn't.

So well put

Rhys

[lareli]

I know God doesn't change His mind. I know He doesn't lie so I figured that I was missing something in these verses. John you're right, I wasn't paying close enough attention to the words.

Micah7:9 I hear ya.. Goes deeper than I thought.



Thanks guys.

[lareli]

Did God deceive Moses by suggesting that He was going to do something that He wasn't going to do?

If a human did exactly what God did in this instance wouldn't we call that deception?

[John from Kentucky]

Did God deceive Moses by suggesting that He was going to do something that He wasn't going to do?

If a human did exactly what God did in this instance wouldn't we call that deception?

Thanks largeli for the heads up!  If God fooled Moses, then that means He can deceive me.

Well, I'm done.  No more studying the Scriptures for me.  God isn't going to fool me anymore.

Babylon, here I come.  It's Friday night this evening.  I'm going bar hopping.

Hello Ladies, your dreams have come true,  JFK is on the way.   

[lareli]

I don't know if you're trying to be sarcastic or humorous... Either way I don't understand your post.

[John from Kentucky]

I don't know if you're trying to be sarcastic or humorous... Either way I don't understand your post.

I know.

[lareli]

What's the point of replying to my question if you know I don't understand you?

Quit playin with my emotions John.. Playin with my emotions is like playin with my money.

[lareli]

John I think you're just too wise and too advanced for an imbecile (had to look that one up) like me. I'm just a 'dope head' who listens to rap music so feel free not to waste your time.


So if there's anyone else who would care to help a brother out.. does God deceive? Was He deceiving Moses? I know the bible says God can't lie and God doesn't tempt.. But does it ever say God can't or doesn't deceive?

I read an email where Ray gave examples of God deceiving folks. It blew my mind to read that and I'm not sure how to accept this yet.

Please don't use too big of words or riddles in your reply. My simple mind might explode.

[Kat]

Hi largely,

Isa 55:8  "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.

Whatever God does is just and right and good, His ways are not the same as our ways. What God may do in order to bring about certain thing is always done to order to achieve a purpose and is never done for a malicious reason. At all times God knows what the end of any situation will actually be (Isa 46:10 ), He is not making His plan up as He goes along.

Here is an email that Ray discusses (in blue) how after king Hezekiah's prayer God decided to extend his life 15 more years than what He said it would be. Did God changes His mind about what He had already said or was this the intended outcome all along?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=10718.0 ---

Subject: Can prayer change God's mind?
How would you interpret this passage?

It seems here that Hezekiah's prayer
changed God's mind on the matter of his time of death

COMMENT:  It may "seem" that way to you, but I assure you God did not
"change" His mind, seeing that [1]  He always knows the end from the beginning,
and [2]  God doesn't "change" (Mal. 3:6,  Isa. 46:10, Rom. 4:3 etc.). 

During his extended life,
which appeared to not be God's original will,

COMMENT:  On what fact are you basing your assumption?  Do you know what
God's "original" will was?  Was it God's "original will" that Hezekiah die 15 years sooner
than he actually did?  So did God "change" His mind and contradict Mal. 3:6?  Was God
unable to "declare Hezekiah's true end of life from the beginning?  So did God contradict
His declaration in Isa. 46:10)?  Was God unable to "call" the correct date of Hezekiah's
death before he died and before He told Hezekiah that He would extend His life?  Did
God contradict His statement in Isa. 46:10.  Surely not.

Hezekiah fathered one of the most evil kings
to come to Israel's history, Menashe

COMMENT:  Your statement has absolutely nothing to do with whether God changes His
mind or not.

Perhaps the Lord will give you what you ask for
even when he clearly states it is not what he planned...

COMMENT:  Again, you are presuming something that is not Scriptural.  Nowhere does
it say that God didn't intend "from the beginning" to extend Hezekiah's life beyond what
Hezekiah thought would be the end of his life.

After all, cannot God change his will if he wants to?

COMMENT:  But He doesn't "want to change" His will.  His plans, purpose, intentions,
and will are perfect and never need adjusting or fine-tuning.

Isaiah 38:1-5
In those days
Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death

The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said,
"This is what the LORD says:
Put your house in order,
because you are going to die; you will not recover

Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD,

Remember, O LORD,
how I have walked before you faithfully
and with wholehearted devotion and have done
what is good in your eyes"

And Hezekiah wept bitterly

Then the word of the LORD came to Isaiah:

Go and tell Hezekiah,
'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says:
I have heard your prayer and seen your tears;
I will add fifteen years to your life'

COMMENT:  Were in all these statement does it say that God did not
know what He was going to do in Hezekiah's life BEFORE He extended
his life, or BEFORE Hezekiah was even born?  It was from Hezekiah's
perspective that his life was extended 15 years.  From God's perspective
He always knew exactly how long Hezekiah would live, and when Hezekiah
would die.  The Scriptures do not contradict.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Also in Luke 24 Christ appeared (after His resurrection) to 2 of His disciples and they were caused not to know Him and there is an interesting point that Ray brings out in this little episode.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7714.msg61399.html#msg61399 ---

Okay this in Luke is where after the resurrection and these two men that were disciples of Christ were going to Emmaus. Because they thought the jig was up and somebody had stole His body or something. 

So Christ comes along and says 'why are you so downcast?' They said 'haven't you heard?' He said, 'heard what?' They said, 'we believe that this guy was the Messiah and they killed Him and besides all that today is the third day and the jig is up, it all over.' So then He says to them;

Luke 24:27  And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
v. 28  And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and He (Jesus) made as though He would have gone further.
v. 29  But they constrained Him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And He went in to tarry with them.

Of course they wanted to learn more about the Scriptures too and they thought this guy is amazing. But did you catch that? "He made as though He would have gone further." Did Jesus Christ intend on going further that night? No. Did He pretend that He was going to keep going on down the road? Yes. Is that a little deceitful? Yes. Was it a good thing? Yes. 

They said, 'Where are you going?' He said, 'On down the road here.' And they, 'no no it's late, come on in with us and we will get something to eat and chew the rag for a while,' and so on.  And He said, 'Oh, okay.' He knew that they would say that. He had got them so excided about the Scriptures, He knew they weren't just going to say, 'Oh okay good bye, see ya, that was interesting.' They wanted more and He knew that. But He wanted them to desire and say, 'no no we want to hear more come on in.' So He pretended, He made like He was going further.
---------------------------------------------------------

So we know that there are some instances in the Scripture where God does seem to do differently than He first said, but did God miscalculation what He intended at first or was it actually intended to happen as it did as Ray shows?

In Exodus 32 God decided not to wipe out the nation of Israel. What I can see may be going on is that God needed to make Moses understand how he (Moses) truly felt about the Israelites. In order to make Moses realize how deeply he cared about them, God purposed that He take them away by wiping them out. Was this something God was debating on doing or just helping Moses see how much he (Moses) loved them, so he would be willing to do all he had to go through to help them. God may have been just using a little reverse phycology there it seems to help Moses understand.

Hope this is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lareli]

Ya Kat that is helpful. I understand what you've posted. I think it is true to say that God can and does deceive.

It's in the scriptures. It's just difficult to admit even though it's right there. Whether the outcome is good or not it still feels blasphemous to say God deceives or God is a deceiver. But it's true isn't it?

He doesn't lie. He doesn't tempt. He doesn't change His mind. He doesn't sin.

He does deceive. He does manipulate. I feel like I'm blaspheming just by writing this.

[lareli]

Here's the email where Ray talks about God deceiving...
 

Deceive
« on: November 18, 2006, 03:44:09 PM »
In Part C of "The Myth of Free Will" did you mean to say, "Just how does God  deceive mankind into thinking that their thoughts and choices free and uncaused?"

I thought you were proving that Satan is the deceiver, not God.  I hope this was an error.  I cannot conceive of God being a deceiver.

Betty


Dear Betty:
I really hate to answer questions such as this, because one is d......ed  if he does and d.......ed if he doesn't tell the truth.

God uses messengers and His Own circumcstances to bring about deceit.  Yes, the serpent "deceived" Eve, as we are clearly told that in the Scriptures.  However, Who created the serpent? God.  Who gave him access to the Garden?  God.  Who commissioned him to deceive Eve?  God.  Who created Eve in such  way that she "thought" she had freedom of the will?  God.  Who commissioned "lying spirits" on several occasions to "deceive" the enemy?  God.  Who is it that send "strong DELUSION"?  "Even him, whose comingis after theworkings of Satan with all power and sings and LYING [deceiving] wonders....And for THIS cause G-O-D  SHALL SEND THEM strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" (ii tHES. 2:9 & 11).

And did not our Own Lord make the two disciples traveling to Emmaus think that He was going to continue walking on down the road when they wanted to turn in for the night, when in reality Jesus had not such intention, but wanted them to INSIST that He go with them (Luke 24:28). Etc.

But please don't tell people that "Ray said that GOD IS A DECEIVER," unless you explain it in the context in which I have explained it to you.  Just for you own comfort of faith, when God did deceive or cause to be deceived in the Scriptures, HE TELLS US!

God be with you,
Ray

[lareli]

So does this mean it is not a sin to deceive someone as long as it's for their good?

[Dave in Tenn]

So does this mean it is not a sin to deceive someone as long as it's for their good?

God kills and makes alive again.  Is it a sin for you to kill?  But suppose you DO kill...can you make alive again?  There are many things that God is "allowed" to do that we are not.  Of course, that doesn't keep many from trying. 

Do you know what is "for their own good"?

Is it a sin to deceive little children about heaven and hell "for their own good"?

Well...whatever deceptions are in the world, WE are told over and over DO NOT BE DECEIVED.  There is a grand purpose for "deception", and that is in no small part to be delivered from it.

That's what happened to Hezekiah.  That's what happened to the two waking with Jesus on the way.


Please note that I put "allowed" in quotation marks.  In truth, God requires NO PERMISSION from His creation to do with it as He sees fit.  He is worthy to be praised, because after all He subjects us to, HE HIMSELF rescues us in ways both small and large once His purpose has come to pass.


   

[lareli]

Dave

So Gods ways are, 'do as I say, not as I do' and 'the end justifies the means'.

Is this accurate?